babble-digest Friday, December 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 087
In this issue:
Re: HTML 4.0
Registering with search engines
Re: depth of the site
RE: depth of the site
RE: depth of the site
RE: depth of the site
re: lighting for design
RE: depth of the site
local New Media networking groups
RE: FRAMESET - fixed width problems
Re: What size monitors
HAPPY HOLIDAY!
season´s greetings
RE: depth of the site
RE: seasons greetings
This is not an advertisement...
8th GVU Survey
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:59:16 -0800
From: "Dan Curry" <dcurry@cwia.com>
Subject: Re: HTML 4.0
Erik,
This will probably answer your question:
CAMBRIDGE, MA, USA -- 18 December, 1997 -- Furthering its mission to
lead the Web to its full potential, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
today announced the release the HTML 4.0 specification as a W3C
Recommendation. HTML 4.0 is the W3C's latest Recommendation for HTML
(HyperText Markup Language), the basic publishing language of the Web. A
W3C Recommendation indicates that a specification is stable, contributes
to Web interoperability, and has been reviewed by all W3C Members, who
are in favor of supporting its adoption by the industry.
"Insisting on HTML 4.0 compliance now will preserve your free choice
of
suppliers of Web software, tools and applications well into the future,"
said Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web.
"With HTML 4.0, any Web application can be vendor-independent. There
really is no excuse for tying yourselves or your partners to proprietary
solutions."
>From http://www.w3.org/Press/HTML4-REC
See also
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/
Dan Curry
dcurry@cwia.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
To: Highfive (babble) <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 9:24 AM
Subject: HTML 4.0
>Does anyone know when HTML 4.0 is going to be implemented?
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:34:40 -0000
From: Liam Fitzgerald <Liam@BIS.IE>
Subject: Registering with search engines
Hi folks,
I've recently spent many a happy(?!!?) hour registering our site with
a
number of search engines. The best way to do it is to use one of the
free submission services e.g.
www.submit-it.com
www.add-it.com
www.register-it.com
As well as offering commercial services these sites will register your
url with all of the major search engines for free. But be prepared to
wait as it takes some search engines up to six weeks to list your site.
Alta Vista is notoriously slow, Infoseek will list your site within a
few days and the rest lie somewhere in between. Be careful not re-submit
the same url repeatedly as some engines will see this as spam and block
your url completely. There are some good tips on www.builder.com about
publicising your site.
Until '98, have a great holiday everybody!
Liam
PS: Dear Santa, this year I'd like Dreamweaver,Photoshop 4......!!!!!
- -----------------------------------
________________Liam Fitzgerald
_________________Graphic/Web Designer
__________________www.creative-fusion.ie
- -----------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:35:28 -0500
From: Jeffrey Miller <jeff@l9.com>
Subject: Re: depth of the site
Marc Northover wrote:
>
> that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of
a site map as a section in a web
> page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they
need to go, there is some sort
> of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good design
and allow quicker access to
> some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?
>
> personally I am anti-site map, but i am open to suggestions and valid
arguments for and against
>
With a particularly large site, you can't help but have some sort
of site map. If I follow the traditional "Rule of Sevens"
(generally humans don't perceive the content of more than 7
grouped items -- besides, it looks too busy) and I've a site with
12 high profile destinations, or, after reviewing site statistics
or reviewing Comments submitted by users, I find that the
AUDIENCE can't find the information, then I know I need to
provide another means of navigation.
It doesn't mean that my design is faulty - its that there are
more ways to navigate than their are navigation schemes, and I
try to cater to as many as I can without overburdening the design
or the site. On every page, we've included a link to the "Home
Page" -- why not include one to a "Site Map" or "Index"?
If you do that - *POOF* secondary and tertiary level navigation
becomes elementary. If a user gets lost, they have not just ONE
escape valve to leap home ("Al, get me outta here," shouted Sam)
but a means to immediately jump to a central collection of links,
without blinking lights, rotating images, SSI pages, scripts,
etc., and certainly no flowery corporate language selling a
product.
In a way, it's better than a series of rollovers to give
exploratory advice to viewers, as its truly cross platform.
Rather than rely on rollovers to give only those users who A -
have the right browser or B - can understand what's happening
when they see it and how to use it, a separate page indexing the
site down to the 3rd (or 4th) level offers easy to manage
information in a format that is easy to understand. I organize
mine into a Table of Contents like a reference book, using nested
Unordered Lists to sort the information.
If you need examples of where I've used this, take a look at:
http://www.stratton.com/stratton/html/index.shtml
http://www.wausau.com/home/index.htm
(select 'Contents' from the
Utility links)
- -Jeffrey-
- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeffrey Miller - Production/Creative Design
Level Nine - http://www.L9.com
Home Page - http://www.amergin.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:09:28 -0500
From: tisiphone <tisifone@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: depth of the site
At 04:55 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Marc Northover wrote:
><start>
>that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a
site
map as a section in a web
>page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they
need
to go, there is some sort
>of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good design
and allow quicker access to
>some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?
>
>personally I am anti-site map, but i am open to suggestions and valid
arguments for and against
Personally, I like a site map-it can give me a quick overview of the
content of a site and it's organization-its can also take relieve some of
the visual and informational complexity of a large site off the 'front
page'-a front page can be too complex (gives me too many choices) or too
abstract (something I am looking for is found under a section heading where
I myself might not have placed it)
Bettina G. May
"curiosity is the hunger of reason"
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:07:28 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: depth of the site
I am a sitemap believer . I think it's like a table of contents in a
book or the list of articles in a magazine. Particularly when frames are
involved. What if someone tells me there's a really good page "so you
start in the Art section and you'll see a list of subsections in the
bottom frame, click illustration, then a set of articles appears in the
left frame, click 'theory of grayscale dominance', then when that
article appears, you'll see a list of links..."
I like frames, I use frames, I will continue to use frames. I like
sitemaps, I use sitemaps, blah blah blah... It's a quick place to get an
overall picture, it helps me find things I might otherwise overlook
while browsing and it's a place to come back to anytime I get lost. I
don't think "great design" necessarily eliminates "confused
visitors".
Why not have a sitemap? Anyone who doesn't want to see it just doesn't
go.
Lance
"Undulating plush, cuddly, machine
washable cannibalistic vegetables
driving equally plush vehicles on
a mission of destruction."
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Northover [mailto:marc@eni.net]
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:56 PM
>To: 'Tenacious Terry'; camwal@cybercable.tm.fr
>Cc: babble@highfive.com
>Subject: RE: depth of the site
>
>
><snip>
>
>Use of a site map could make the 'big picture' more readily apparent,
>if you really wanted your visitors to see how extensive the site is.
>But number of pages? Nahhh. I don't need to know.
>
>
><start>
>that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a
>site map as a section in a web
>page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they
>need to go, there is some sort
>of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good
>design and allow quicker access to
>some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?
>
>personally I am anti-site map, but i am open to suggestions and valid
>arguments for and against
>
>marc
>
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>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:37:11 -0500
From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
Subject: RE: depth of the site
>At 04:55 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Marc Northover wrote:
>that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a
site
>map as a section in a web page. It seems that if you need a site map
to
get people >where they need to go, there is some sort of design flaw.
However on the other >hand, you might have a good design and allow quicker
access to some information. >What does everyone or anyone else think?
Well if ya really wanna know...
I don't think I'd take this map concept too personally, actually, as
a
couple of other people are seeming to do, or saying they do at least.
I'd take a look at my audience. What kind of "traditional"
media are they
used to using?
Audience A...Are they used to using complex resources to gather
information? Do they know how to do effective searches (i.e. more than
keyword)? Then a map might not be necessary. An effective nav will be
enough for them
Audience B...If you have an audience/market that complains about being
"lost on the Web" and not knowing how to get back to page C from
page F,
then you might want to use one.
I think that for a 200+ page site, you'd have to create maps for each
section -- Can you imagine trying to map that on a screen? I don't know,
I'm just not an info architect but jeez that seems like it might be
ridiculous.
I have seen one cool sitemap where the site looked like a bunch of
color-coded cards, and the cards turned a different color to indicate that
you had already visited that page of the site. It was JavaScript-generated,
I think. Maybe on WebDeveloper or something. Now I don't know how *useful*
that kind of thing is, but it was there and it was interesting. I did,
however stop loading it the second time I went there (to see if it really
worked) b/c it just took too darn long on my crotchety old ISDN.
shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html
Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
-Goethe
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:38 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: re: lighting for design
>Also, does anyone have any suggestions for the
>ambient lighting which works best for design? I
>noticed today that I have more flourescent wattage
>shining on me at work than probably 90% of my
>viewership.
Depends in what context you are refering to. Comfort is one thing. But
I
think you are trying to make a decision on how OTHERS will see your images,
and, well...you can't. EVERY monitor is set differently and the lighting
in
EVERY room is different.
If your talking about Print design, there is quite a bit of calibrating
that can be done, which takes into effect lighting, the monitor, your
software and your output device.
As for comfort, flourescent is notoriously bad for ANY type of work.
It has
a noticable flicker and is more on the "blue side". In addition,
the way
flourescent is usually installed, it causes noticable glare on monitors
and
is usually too bright for computer work in general.
Incandescent is better, with indirect halogen being close to ideal (it
is
closer to "true-white")
Of course, sunlight is the best, but it's tough to mix sunlight with
computer screens as that usually causes extreme glare.
- -Darrel
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:08:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: RE: depth of the site
The purpose of a site map should not be to "get people where they
need to
go," but rather to give, in one location, an overview of the structure
and
information of the site, as well as a way for the viewer to get to exactly
the information he/she is looking for. A site with a tiered navigational
structure, for example, benefits greatly from the use of a site map, since
the contents of subsections and their subsections (and so on) may not be
easily displayable at the top level.
Using a site map is not an excuse for not refining your navigation --
"What do you mean you can't find it? Look at the site map." It
is,
instead, something that can be used in conjunction with a well designed
and well architected site to provide yet another safety net to catch your
audience before they give up and go running back to Yahoo or AltaVista.
- - Porter
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Marc Northover wrote:
> that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a
site map as a section in a web
> page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they
need to go, there is some sort
> of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good design
and allow quicker access to
> some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?
>
> personally I am anti-site map, but i am open to suggestions and valid
arguments for and against
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:21:43 -0000
From: Robin <rgrant@brann.co.uk>
Subject: local New Media networking groups
Dear All
A couple of months ago, I helped to set up underscore_ - http://www.bristol.net/underscore/ - a networking group for people working in New Media in Bristol (UK).
I feel we have come a long way in that time, with a real sense of community starting to develop in the group (our own underscore mailing list has been one of the major factors in this) and we are beggining to be able to form a group concenus on issues that effect us locally - and do something about them (which is nice!).
I'm interested to hear if there are any groups similar to this this which I'm not aware of (check our links page first http://www.bristol.net/_/links.htm !), especially any in the UK, and just to hear anyones opinion about what we are trying to do.
have fun
Robin
ps. sorry my english is not particularily fluent, well spelt or grammatically correct, but its the day after the office party, and I'm not feeling too good...
==========================================================
Robin Grant, Production Manager, Brann Interactive
100 Victoria, Bristol, UK, BS1 6HE - http://www.brann.co.uk/interactive/
phone: 0117 914 6260, fax 0117 914 6125, mobile: 0973 638 390
email: robin@perfect.co.uk, icq: 362763, www: http://www.perfect.co.uk/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:34:33 -0500
From: "Pete Clark" <9Poison@GBSO.Net>
Subject: RE: FRAMESET - fixed width problems
Just off the top of my head, why don't you take a look at the Methodfive
site <http://www.methodfive.com>.
They seem to be doing exactly what you
are attempting without browser incompatibility problems. I haven't looked
at their code but maybe it can be of some help.
Pete Clark
9Poison@gbso.net
www.gbso.net/9poison
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:35:46 +0100
From: Marc Elmlund <marc@wineasy.se>
Subject: Re: What size monitors
At 20.10 +0200 97-12-18, Karl Heinz Kluter wrote:
>Hi, dear fellas,
>does anybody know about
>what size monitors are the most spreaded
>what is the screensize
>used by the user.
>Is there a selling statistic existing?
CAPDESIGN (A swedish magazine) recently published the following statistics
from a recent study of European surfers :
1280x1024 - 16%
1152x900 - 6%
1024x768 - 35%
800x600 - 28%
640x480 - 15%
Marc Elmlund
Xponent Media
Stockholm, Sweden
marc@wineasy.se
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:51:39 +0000
From: Eli Juicy Jones <juicy@focus2.com>
Subject: HAPPY HOLIDAY!
Happy Fuzzy Holiday Stuff from us at focus2!
Take a look at our cross-format focused holiday new media world wide
web
showcase page, authored tenderly and specifically to meet the needs of you
and *your* browser, at the following U.R.L.:
http://www.focus2.com/images/xmascard2.mov
If you have trouble viewing this movie, try:
http://www.focus2.com/images/xmascard.mov
where you will find a smaller, if slightly less exciting, version.
Don't be fooled by imitations! Trust me, your careful personal perusal
of
this web page will serve only to enhance your general holiday experience
and bring that special warm feeling that we all crave this time of year.
You've been most cooperative.
___ ___
/'___\ /'___`\
/\ \__/ ___ ___ __ __ ____ /\_\ /\ \
\ \ ,__\ / __`\ /'___\ /\ \/\ \ /',__\ \/_/// /__
\ \ \_//\ \L\ \/\ \__/ \ \ \_\ \/\__, `\ // /_\ \
\ \_\ \ \____/\ \____\ \ \____/\/\____/ /\______/
\/_/ \/___/ \/____/ \/___/ \/___/ \/_____/
a DESIGN company
http://www.focus2.com
mailto:email@focus2.com
___ ___ ___ ___
love, /\ \ /\__\ ___ /\ \ |\__\
\:\ \ /:/ / /\ \ /::\ \ |:| |
___ /::\__\ /:/ / \:\ \ /:/\:\ \ |:| |
/\ /:/\/__/ /:/ / ___ /::\__\ /:/ \:\ \ |:|__|__
\:\/:/ / /:/__/ /\__\ __/:/\/__/ /:/__/ \:\__\ /::::\__\
\::/ / \:\ \ /:/ / /\/:/ / \:\ \ \/__/ /:/~~/~
\/__/ \:\ /:/ / \::/__/ \:\ \ /:/ /
\:\/:/ / \:\__\ \:\ \ \/__/
\::/ / \/__/ \:\__\
focus2 \/__/ "we be media" \/__/ a DESIGN
firm
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:18:15 +0100
From: "S. Lutzmann" <SLUTZMANN@asv.de>
Subject: season´s greetings
season´s greetingshappy holiday
happy new year
good will to all
get our Xmas screensaver at
http://www.fishing4.com
Sabine................................................................Sabine
Lutzmann mobil: ++49-172-4339430
Axel Springer Verlag AG Tel: ++49-40-34726192
Abt: electronic publishing Fax: ++49-40-34726195
"mailto:slutzmann@asv.de"
http://titanic.abendblatt.de
.....................................................................
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely
foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
.....................................................................
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:41:06 -0900
From: Carol Gering <fncsg@aurora.alaska.edu>
Subject: RE: depth of the site
Marc wrote:
<snip>
that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a site
map as a section in a web
page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they
need to go, there is some sort
of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good design
and allow quicker access to
some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?
</snip>
I think it's important to bear in mind that we all have different
learning styles. I'm an abstract sequential learner: I like lists . .
. I like things in order . . . traditional outline form makes sense to
me (I. II. III., A. B. C.). My husband and one of my children are
concrete random learners. What a shock to discover that they don't
*see* things the same way I do. What's logical to me is totally
illogical and non-intuitive to them.
All that to say: a site map gives visitors another avenue for finding
something that seemed totally intuitive to the designer.
- --
Carol Gering, Computers & Networking
Center for Distance Education
University of Alaska Fairbanks
http://uafcde.lrb.uaf.edu
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:01:01 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: seasons greetings
Hell - I mean, Heavens, if we're going to broadcast our site-based
holiday cheer, then grab your eggs and nog them on over to:
It's pretty. It's disturbing. It's pretty disturbing.
CAUTION: This story makes fun of several Christmas traditions including
cheese logs! If humor about cheese logs or cheese in general is
offensive to you, DO NOT VIEW THIS SITE!
Thanks!
Lance
...
This email has been altered from its original form.
It has been edited for content and adjusted to fit this screen.
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 13:57:43 -0800
From: Craig Hockenberry <craigh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: This is not an advertisement...
Fellow babblites,
Many of you have requested information about the Photoshop filters I'm
working on. This is just a quick note to let you know that we've released
the first set at www.furbo-filters.com.
It's the Designer Pack, which is
reviewed in the upcoming issue of Macworld (p. 102).
Work continues on the Webmaster Series (the one that many of you are
anxiously waiting to download). We've gotten the filters to the beta
stage and they will be available shortly. Early feedback from users has
been very positive. I'll post a short note to this list when you can
download the new set.
Finally, we have been asked about the availability of Windows versions
of
the filters. To be honest, I have a limited amount of time to develop
shareware (developing Quark XTensions for Mac & Windows pays the bills).
I will work on getting the filters cross-platform in the early months of
1998. I've got the tools and experience. Time is the limiting factor.
I apologize if this seems like an advertisement for my filters. It's
just
easier for me to give one status report than it is to do a whole bunch of
e-mail replies.
Later,
- -ch
- --
www.furbo-filters.com == Photoshop plug-ins for Web & Graphic design
Read about them in Macworld -- 3.5 stars -- February 1998, page 102
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:54:11 +0800
From: "Tenacious Terry" <tenacious-t@thecybercircus.com>
Subject: 8th GVU Survey
Hi everyone,
The results from the GVU (Graphics, Visualization, and Usability)
Center's Eighth Survey are now available from:
http://www.gvu.gatech.edu/user_surveys/survey-1997-10/
Terry K.
___________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s___________________
S T E P R I G H T U P ! T H E S H O W H A S B E G U N !
tenacious-t@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com/
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End of babble-digest V1 #87
***************************