Babble v1 95

babble-digest Tuesday, December 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 095

In this issue:
Re: From web to print!?!
How clients feel about degraded web pages...
Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)
Its Xmas!!! Go home and get some rest!
RE: unintentional page reloads
Browser stats
Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.) Starting at right
Re: unintentional page reloads in NS
Re: unintentional page reloads in NS
Re: single pixel gif trick and IE
Re: IE4 Mac/PC
RE: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)
Re: From web to print
Re: background as nav image
640x480.. or not?
Re: image prep
javascript resources...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 97 18:52:24 +0800
From: "Chris McLay, Eycon Studio" <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: From web to print!?!

>The problem is that the client also wants the document to be
>downloadable, camera-ready, for offset printing. Forgetting for a
>moment that the resolution is too low, how can we take the dynamically
>generated page and slop the content into something that can be
>downloaded and output for printing?

I think you would have to forget using the HTML generated page for offset
work. I have done a lot of work for both web and offset and they are very
different in their technical requirements.

However, you could use the same info that you use to generate the HTML to
generate a postscript file that could then be printed reliably. Programming
postscript is not much fun though. You could also use a Mac server (could
be secondry) and use AppleScript to control PageMaker/Quark/? and then
print to a PDF file. This would take a while, a minute or two, so you could
optionally email the PDF in people needed it.

Something to think about...

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:39:57 -0600
From: Chana Campos <writers@swbell.net>
Subject: How clients feel about degraded web pages...

This is an interesting letter which was used as part of a column on
webmonkey (really informative site, by the way). The entire article can
be found at

http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/templates/print_template.htmlt?meta=/webmonkey/tools/97/03/index0a_meta.html

> I got some email last week from just that sort of client. He has hired and fired more site-design shops
> than he cares to remember, and all for the same reason: They have no regard for his customers. And
> while he requested anonymity, there is much to learn from his perspective, so I've included his words
> below:
>
> From: ????@????.com Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 12:44:18 EST To: jeff@hotwired.com
> Subject: Browser choice...
>
> I am tired of "your browser is lame" messages from some page I encounter. Even
> worse are the blank pages that result from a page that assumes that I have
> frames - I've chosen mine because I will not use a browser that supports
> client-side execution. No, I don't trust the platitudes of the Javaheads, and I
> haven't gotten around to setting up a "sacrificial" system outside my firewall. I
> use Netscape 1.x, Opera (since Netscape requires the use of a pointing device)
> and Lynx.
>
> When a TV commercial is produced, the following things are checked: How does it
> look in black and white? Does it get the message across if the volume's turned
> down (including at VCR fast forward speeds) or if there's only sound?
>
> Commercials are so consistently captioned that if you were interested in old
> movies, you could make a pretty good commercial zapper by simply detecting the
> caption. Basically they want the message to get through no matter how
> compromised the circumstances of its reception. They want to be sure that the
> disabled can still get the message. Partly it is good PR, but it's also because the
> disabled's money is just as green.
>
> When I evaluate a Web site proposal from a design house, I expect to see it
> demonstrated with more than one browser, (including Lynx and the old version of
> IE that comes with Win95) and I expect you to be prepared to show it over a
> dialup, not just from local disk. It is fine to use extra plug-ins, but I better get
> something reasonable if I don't have the thing installed. With a default setting of
> the security switches in browsers like Netscape, I better not get a warning
> message when I first see the page. You have to show real text in the boxes, not
> just "graphics image 1," and I had better be able to get to everything with a text
> mode browser.
>
> You lose points if I have to ask for these things (especially the dial-up
> demonstration). I expect you to have already thought of them.
>
> I couldn't agree more. Building degradable, accessible Web sites takes a lot of additional work, but will
> most certainly pay off. Whether you care about Lynx users or not, a site that considers multiple
> browsers is seldom a poorly designed site. Consider yourself warned.

I thought the view from the client's standpoint was well-made and
definitely worth noting.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:43:22 -0500
From: Dana Adams <dana@studiowerks.com>
Subject: Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)

David R. Israel wrote:
~SNIP~
> modeled after that direction), one would unroll the handscroll which,
> when fully rolled, would sit to one's left, and when completed, would
> be in a new coil at one's right.
~snip~

Interesting concept. How would one go about engineering the page that
upon arrival displayed the right most field of view requiring the use to
scroll to the left? It doesn't seem that Windows or Mac OSs support this
method natively...Is there a way this could be faked?
- --

jekyl \ National Life of Vermont \ mailto:adams_dana@nlvmail.com \
http://www.nlv.com
hyde \ s t u d i o w e r k s \ mailto:dana@studiowerks.com \
http://www.studiowerks.com

a do do do, a da da da, that's all i want to say to you...
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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 03:26:01 -0800
From: Steve <steve@tnet.co.uk>
Subject: Its Xmas!!! Go home and get some rest!

Hi,

Excuse me if I sound a bit abrupt, but it is christmas eve tomorrow...
and I dont know about you but my creative juices are being absorbed by
the knowledge that I have some time off..!!

I have noticed that this list has actually got busier over the past few
days... I thought xmas would be quiet around here!!

PLEASE, please go home to your families and friends, get drunk (or
whatever else you do) and ENJOY YOURSELVES.... lets forget about browser
degredation and colour pallettes for a while.... Ok, at least until
boxing day...!!!

Merry Xmas Everyone...

Speak to you all in the new year!!

Steve (Spine...#)

http://www.tnet.co.uk
http:/www.tnet.co.uk/users/spine
http://www.world-cup.co.uk
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:56:40 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: RE: unintentional page reloads

><META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

::snip::

>BUT, if you are using Microsoft FrontPage
>for your Web design, it automatically inserts this line as you create new
>pages.

FYI, for all you Dreamweaver users, DW also automatically inserts this
line. I haven't tested whether it will reinsert it if you manually remove
it, but I imagine it wouldn't. Take the line outta there!

Thanks for the heads-up on that line, Steve. I thought it was just a
general FrontPage thing.
____________________
Pat Flanagan Publishing & Design
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:58:31 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Browser stats

>I know it's been discussed before, but can someone point me in the direction
>of a url with statistics on what the most popular browser is, the most
>popular screen resolution... that sort of information?

Try http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats.html
____________________
Pat Flanagan Publishing & Design
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:05:17 -0500
From: "George S. Williams" <sterling@exis.net>
Subject: Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.) Starting at right

At 07:43 AM 12/23/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Interesting concept. How would one go about engineering the page that
>upon arrival displayed the right most field of view requiring the use to
>scroll to the left?

Hello, Dana,

You can do this with JavaScript:

Place something like this in the HEAD-
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">function right(){
scroll(4000,0);
}</SCRIPT>
where (4000,0) are the x,y coordinates of the upper left of the page after
the scroll. Make x large enough to scrool to the end (or where ever).

Place this within the body attributes-
ONLOAD="right()

Once the page loads, it will jump to the right end.

I modified the page at-

http://www.websterling.com/pieces/

to show this.

Happy hollydaze,
georgew

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:54:56 +0100
From: Henrik Thunborg <a96henth@student.his.se>
Subject: Re: unintentional page reloads in NS

Steve Bang wrote:

> > I have recently been getting complaint emails from visitors to my
> sites
> > saying that some pages would load and immediately after finishing,
> clear
> > and reload, all over again (not from cache). I have only seen this
> > happen in Netscape 3 and 4, and the pages have lots of tables in
> them,
> > but I can't figure out what the source of the problem is.
>
> This is a known bug. According to Microsoft Technical Support, the
> problem
> is in how some Netscape browsers interpret the following line in the
> header
> of HTML documents:
>
> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1">
>
> If this line is present, the screen can refresh after loading in
> Netscape
> browsers. I can't remember the technical details, but if you remove
> that
> line, the problem will disappear. BUT, if you are using Microsoft
> FrontPage
> for your Web design, it automatically inserts this line as you create
> new
> pages. Even worse, if you remove that line, FrontPage will re-insert
> that
> line. The best solution is to leave MS FrontPage behind and find
> another
> HTML editor. Otherwise, you can delete that line by using any text
> editor,
> but the minute you forget and open that page again with FrontPage and
> save
> the page, you'll re-introduce the problem.

<snip>

Hi
>From what I can see MS FrontPage 98 does not insert that line, so if
your using
MS FrontPage my advice is to upgrade it to FrontPage 98.

Merry Christmas to all of you!!!

Henrik

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:16:31 -0500
From: Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com>
Subject: Re: unintentional page reloads in NS

At 03:54 PM 12/23/97 +0100, Henrik Thunborg blurted out:
> From what I can see MS FrontPage 98 does not insert that line, so if
> your using MS FrontPage my advice is to upgrade it to FrontPage 98.

Or HomeSite, or HAHTSite, or pretty much anything else. FrontPage is
a piece of trash. You'd be better off (and you'd know more about what
is actually in your code) if you used Notepad.exe. :)

> Merry Christmas to all of you!!!

And to all a good night.

- --
Steven Champeon | Go n-ithe an cat thú, is go
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ | n-ithe an diabhal an cat!
http://a.jaundicedeye.com | - Gaelic curse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:10:06 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: single pixel gif trick and IE

microsoft's browser (IE3 and IE4) inserts unwanted horizontal gaps around
all images. whether microsoft considers it a bug or a "feature" is
anybody's guess.

more on this: http://www.zeldman.com/faq.html

you can compensate by "splitting the difference" between the HSPACE you
wanted as displayed in netscape, and how that same HSPACE looks in
explorer. crude, quick example: HSPACE=6 looks great for your design when
viewed in navigator, but the wide open spaces look wrong in explorer. try
HSPACE=4 and view the same page in both browsers. keep adjusting. you get
the idea.

compromise. the unheard message in all of web design.

***
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:24:04 +0100
> From: "David P. Leader" <d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk>
> Subject: Single pixel gif trick and IE
>

> The I try IE3 and IE4
> (Mac) and horror of horrors, my first attempt at using
> invisible single
> pixels for leading has led to em-space sized gaps in
> the text. Can anyone
> tell me if this is a known problem with IE or is it
> just platform-specific
> (can't find a pc running IE) - or am I doing something
> wrong?
***

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"A genius with too much time on his hands." -- Magellan, 4 Stars

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:37:20 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: IE4 Mac/PC

>It looks exactly the same on both Netscape and IE 4.0 on the PC. (But =
>what do you expect on the MAC anyway!?)

I expect members of this list to refrain from snide sniping at other
people's choice of operating systems. We are supposed to be professionals.
And contrary to what you may believe, the web is not a Microsoft product.
It is a cross-platform medium and meeting ground.

I expect members of this list to be savvy enough to turn off automatic
mime-encoding if they use a web browser for email. The only thing worse
than encountering smug prejudice in a list message is having to read
through it twice: first as ASCII text, then as mime-encoded junk. Netscape
has a simple checkbox to turn off automatic mime-encoded duplication of
email messages. Use it.

I expect intelligence. If a company that makes an OS also makes a
supposedly cross-platform web browser, and that browser misbehaves under
any operating system but their own, that is either bad engineering or
unsubtle salesmanship. In either case, an intelligent person will blame the
browser, not the OS.

If you wish to publicly rejoice in your choice of operating system, there
are appropriate lists for that. This is not one of them.

Have a swell day.

Jeffrey

______f_u_r_b_o___f_i_l_t_e_r_s_________________________

Photoshop plug-ins for Web & Graphic Design

______________________ http://www.furbo-filters.com ____

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:42:56 -0500
From: "Brian Alvey" <balvey@obnm.com>
Subject: RE: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)

If you're using frames it's easy.

Put your content in some frame called "main" using "main.htm" or whatever.
Make it nice and wide. Put a name anchor on the rightmost content called
"start" or something similar.

When you build the frameset, have the frameset call for the main page
using "main.htm#start".

You should get that frame pre-scrolled to the right.

Now your audience has to figure out that you want them to scroll left.

If you avoiding frames, you need to either have your initial links to that
page point to "main.htm#start" or have the page you do link to (like an
"index.htm") do a redirect to "main.htm#start".

-- Brian

On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 7:43 AM, Dana Adams
[SMTP:dana@studiowerks.com] wrote:
> David R. Israel wrote:
> ~SNIP~
> > modeled after that direction), one would unroll the handscroll which,
> > when fully rolled, would sit to one's left, and when completed, would
> > be in a new coil at one's right.
> ~snip~
>
> Interesting concept. How would one go about engineering the page that
> upon arrival displayed the right most field of view requiring the use to
> scroll to the left? It doesn't seem that Windows or Mac OSs support this
> method natively...Is there a way this could be faked?
> --
>
> jekyl \ National Life of Vermont \ mailto:adams_dana@nlvmail.com \
> http://www.nlv.com
> hyde \ s t u d i o w e r k s \ mailto:dana@studiowerks.com \
> http://www.studiowerks.com
>
> a do do do, a da da da, that's all i want to say to you...
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:15:29 PST
From: "John Bedard" <john_b5@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: From web to print

Thank you to all who replied. Our programming staff in New York says
they found a solution and can generate the PDFs as needed. I'm not sure
how, I just draw pictures <grin>. If we get the account, I'll find out
the details and post them, if you are interested.

Thanks,

John Bedard
Graphic Artist
NetHaven, A Division of Computer Associates International, Inc.
Denver Office
http://www.ca-nethaven.com/

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:46:07 +1000
From: esoweb <esoweb@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: background as nav image

In a site I have been developing recently I used a background image in the nav
frame, with text links in a table on top. The client wanted something that would
be easily updated - the links are expected to change quite frequently - text
links mean that anyone can dive into the HTML source and change the nav bar
without having to re-render any more gifs...

http://student.uq.edu.au/~s324057/nav/

(this probably does not work on small montors...sorry...but its just a
prototype.)
- --
| Toby Hede
| Designer/Programmer

| esoweb
| => web design & development

| http://www2.one.net.au/~esoweb/

- --------------------------------------
It is better to be inspired than wired
- --------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:42:57 -0800
From: Kevin Cheng <kevin@FIRE.osl.com>
Subject: 640x480.. or not?

Hello everyone (everyone: hello, Kevin)

I think it is generally accepted that the lowest common denominator is
to design your page for 640x480 resolution. A while back, there was a
thread discussing how each of us go through pre-publishing. I myself
also lay out my pages on PS before cutting it up and HTMLizing it.

My question is this: I typically do my prepublishing on a 640x480 canvas
but this really isn't quite accurate. With each browser's toolbars,
icons, title bars, status bars, and scroll bars, much less of the page
is actually available. Does anyone have any idea what is the -absolute-
safest resolution to design under, for ANY platform/browser?

(as if trying to fit things in 640x480 width wasn't hard enough)

thanks for the input,

Kevin Cheng
# illusion designs

PS Happy Christmas and Merry New Year. May you have completed your
shopping.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:03:38 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: image prep

matthew nash wrote:
>
> hi everybody
>
> i'm using a lot of small photos: prep method: either hardcopy 8x10 or
> contact sheet > scanned into photoshop > manipulated in photoshop and
> saved to indexed color tiff or pict > made into gif via graphic converter
> > strung into slide-show using gif-buider.
>
> there are many pix that have backgrounds of very subtly changing greys
> (many of the black and whites where shot in front of a grey seamless. no
> matter what i do, i can't get the subtle backgrounds (whether in bxw or
> color) to transfer to gif with their smooth transitions from shade to
> shade to shade of grey. what am i doing wrong?
>

My advice is;

If you don't require transparency for the image, especially if they are
photographic type images, use a jpeg instead (don't forget to turn off
the automatic icon & preview generation) and just leave it at 24bit
color.

If you must use a gif (or just really want to) get the gif89a export
filter from adobe's website which simplifys the process. You can then
select the areas that are problem and without deselecting, index the
image, which will emphasise the problem areas.

daniel keating:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:33:05 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: javascript resources...

I have just finished upgrading the Online Resources of my JavaScript
Resources and Information section:

http://members.aol.com/thewprg/htm/jvscript.htm

I am collecting some of the more commonly used scripts (rollovers, color
changers, popup windows, links, etc) to put in TheWPRG's forthcoming
Respository section; in the mean time, top sites to get free scripts for
customizing include:

24 Hour Javacripts
http://www.javascripts.com/

Cut-N-Paste JavaScripts
http://www.infohiway.com/javascript/indexf.htm

Developer.com (formerly Gamelan???)
http://www.developer.com/directories/pages/dir.javascript.html

The JavaScript Source
http://javascriptsource.com/main.html

JavaGoodies JavaScript Repository
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/javagoodies/

JavaScript Tip of the Week
http://webreference.com/javascript/

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
.....http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.......
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
.....on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .......
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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End of babble-digest V1 #95
***************************

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