Babble v1 94

babble-digest Tuesday, December 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 094

In this issue:
From web to print!?!
Re: unintentional page reloads in NS
Re: From web to print!?!
Request for opinion
Re: a cool trick
Single Pixel Gif trick - apologies
background as nav image
Unintentional page reloading
RE: a cool trick
RE: From web to print!?!
TECH: Re: Unintentional page reloading
RE: background as nav image
Rollover Script?
Re: Rollover Script?
Re: From web to print!?!
Re: horizontal scrolling
Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:02:21 PST
From: "John Bedard" <john_b5@hotmail.com>
Subject: From web to print!?!

</lurk>

First of all, I apologize in advance if this list is not the appropriate
place for this question. If you can point me in the right direction,
please do so.

We have a (potential) client who wants their subscribers to be able to
create a custom document (web page) by picking and choosing from a
database, which also needs to be printable in Netscape. That's not the
problem. Our programmer thinks he can manipulate the query and the
template (Cold Fusion) so it breaks across pages.

The problem is that the client also wants the document to be
downloadable, camera-ready, for offset printing. Forgetting for a
moment that the resolution is too low, how can we take the dynamically
generated page and slop the content into something that can be
downloaded and output for printing?

We can't really use PDFs because of the need for customization. That
is, unless the HTML document can be printed to a file or the Acrobat
Distiller and then sent to a printer.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

John Bedard
Graphic Artist
NetHaven, A Division of Computer Associates International, Inc.
Denver Office
http://www.ca-nethaven.com/

<lurk>

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:53:47 +0100
From: Tomas Caspers <t.caspers@hermes.de>
Subject: Re: unintentional page reloads in NS

First Name Last Name (yeah right) wrote:
>I have recently been getting complaint emails from visitors to my sites
>saying that some pages would load and immediately after finishing, clear
>and reload, all over again (not from cache). I have only seen this
>happen in Netscape 3 and 4, and the pages have lots of tables in them,
>but I can't figure out what the source of the problem is.

Hija
I bet you have a <META HTTP-EQUIV="content-type"
CONTENT="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1"> somewhere in your HTML, right?
Loose it and the reloading will stop. Known bug in Netscape/Mac.
HTH
Tomas

- -- Tomas Caspers - tomas@artware.de
- -- Help squash the bugs in Netscape:
- -- http://www.artware.de/nc4petition/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:00:37 +0100
From: Tomas Caspers <t.caspers@hermes.de>
Subject: Re: From web to print!?!

John Bedard wrote:
>The problem is that the client also wants the document to be
>downloadable, camera-ready, for offset printing. [...]
>We can't really use PDFs because of the need for customization. That
>is, unless the HTML document can be printed to a file or the Acrobat
>Distiller and then sent to a printer.

John, from what I understand, Acrobats next version will be able to create
the kind of hi-res documents you need on the fly. Sorry, don't have any
URLs handy but you might want to check out adobe.com for any announcements
or press releases.
HTH
Tomas

<!--Tomas Caspers, t.caspers@hermes.de
<!--Medienkonzepte & Realisation, Cologne, Germany
<!--www.hermes.de/westernimprints/ www.hermes.de/baby/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:38:33 +0200
From: andrey <andrey@bwc.org>
Subject: Request for opinion

Hi guys,

if you have a spare moment, have a look at
http://www.falkondesign.com/BryceContest
which is site i prepared for... well, it's obvious Bryce Contest. It's
still pretty rough and under development, and waiting for participants,
but you will get an idea on it's organization. Yeah, it's dhtml based
one, so, please, just 4.nn browsers!. All comments are welcome.

Warm regards,
a.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:11:11 -0800
From: "Michael Liu" <mliu@compellingimages.com>
Subject: Re: a cool trick

Hi Shelby and fellow Babblers,

I checked out the site at <http://www.bluechippubs.com> and I seem to have
discovered a problem with the nav frame.

I too have been working on a site that uses a navbar on the left side of
the page and considered using frames too prevent the navbar from scrolling
while the viewer scrolls down through the content on the page. But I found
that if the nav bar is taller than the height of the browser window, you
get an ugly scroll bar between the nav frame and the content frame (too bad
we can't tell the browser to stick the scroll bar on the left -- and yes, I
am familiar with the design of putting the nav frame on the right side of
the page).

The problem with using the trick that you mentioned is that, while
eliminating "those nasty, unwanted scroll bars" if the nav frame extends
down beyond the browser window, it eliminates the ability to scroll *when*
the nav frame extends down beyond the browser window! (i.e., Information
in the nav frame can get cut off and the viewer has no way of getting to
it.)

To test this on your site, I changed my screen resolution from 1024x768
down to 640x480 (god I wish all monitors were at least 17" and set to
1024x768). Using MSIE3 (which gives more vertical viewing room than NN3)
and with all the toolbar options turned on in the standard configuration
(the way most Web surfers will have their browser configured because they
don't know how to change these things), I found that the phone number near
the bottom of the nav frame got cleanly sliced in two (with the bottom half
un-viewable); the "BC" logo below the phone number was, of course,
completely gone. (How's that for a run-on sentence!)

While this may be considered a minor loss for this site, in the case where
a nav frame has more links, the possibility of links extending below the
viewing window and becoming being unreachable is a very real problem. I've
read some posts on this list suggesting that most people are using screen
resolutions of 800x600 and up, but I just don't believe that. Yes, Web
professionals, graphics designers, etc., are using big monitors at high
resolutions, but not you average "I-bought-my-Christmas-PC-at-Costco" Web
surfer. Sadly, most computers are sold with 14" and 15" monitors and are
configured for 640x480. In fact, I have assisted many people with computer
problems (occupational hazard) and have found that for most, even when I
show them how to change the resolution of their 15" monitor to 800x600,
they don't like it and have me change it back down to 640x480. Sigh!

So it seems to me that if you plan on using this non-scrolling nav frame
trick, then you must ensure that *all* the nav frame information will fit
in a standard 640x480 viewing window. Unfortunately, NN3, in its standard
(ugly and selfish) configuration (i.e., toolbar, location bar, and
directory buttons turned on), only yields 285 pixels of vertical viewing
space (and you lose 15 pixels off the top of that for Netscape's bloody
offset!); MSIE3 in its standard configuration (being a bit more courteous),
yields 312 pixels of vertical viewing space. BTW, these figures are for a
Win95 PC -- if someone has the figures for a Mac, please post them.

Sorry for the lengthily post! :P

Regards,

Michael Liu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:18:12 +0000
From: David Leader <d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Single Pixel Gif trick - apologies

Apologies for my stupidity over the single pixel gif thing. It was the
width of the pixels plus space at either side, as Porter Glendinning kindly
pointed out. But, it was only really noticeble on IE on the Mac. Wierd. The
smaller point size of the text may be a contributary factor. Ideally one
would put the pixels at the end of the lines, but as the text formats
differently on the two platforms one can't do that. I'm still worried that
whatever I do it will look odd on one browser or platform, but I haven't
checked it out yet.

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:37:01 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: background as nav image

>Actually, that's not the trick I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that
>the *background image* actually has the *navigation images* in it and
>spacer gifs are on top of those images, and those spacer gifs become the
>image links.

I did the same thing at this site:

http://www.lifeauto.com.au/

There is a popup remote control which contains a background image of
icons. The links are actually just a transparent gif sized to the
background image, and layed out in a table. The advantage this gave was
that I was able to put a rollover effect within the larger image.

The site is still under construction, and I am not real sure about the
popup remote control idea. Seemed a good idea at the time, but now I am
thinking of incorporating it back into the main window, which still
needs some major attention to layout...It works well in 1024x768 but
doesn't scale down well.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:43:29 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Unintentional page reloading

>I have recently been getting complaint emails from visitors to my sites
>saying that some pages would load and immediately after finishing, clear
>and reload, all over again (not from cache).

This seems to be one of those numerable defects in Netscape. It loves to
reload whole pages, often seemingly at random. You'll notice that if you
resize a page it also reloads the whole thing. Compare it to IE side by
side and the difference is phenomenal. Under IE a page resize happens
instantly, Netscape clears the page to gray and laboriously reloads
everything. Does Netscape even USE the cache? I have my suspicions...

Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:57:39 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: RE: a cool trick

On Monday, December 22, 1997 11:42 AM, Lance Arthur
[SMTP:larthur@dbtinc.com] wrote:
> I believe our host, High Five, uses this method on their Navigation
> frame.

That's right. When the new redesign of H5 launched, the nav elements were
"on" the web page. We soon realized that due to some rendering problems in
certain browsers under different conditions (low memory or almost-full
cache, etc.) those important nav gifs were floating off the page.
Todd Fahrner, Verso's design technologist and finest mesh sieve, came up
with the solution to place the navigation elements in one big background
and have single pixel gifs float on top of them.

Christopher Schmitt
http://www.highfive.com/
415.278.9900 ext. 38
mailto:chris@christopher.org
"Oh, waiter. This conversation isn't very good."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:12:20 -0500
From: "Brian M. Platz" <platz.brian@infoband.com>
Subject: RE: From web to print!?!

On Monday, December 22, 1997 5:02 PM, John Bedard
[SMTP:john_b5@hotmail.com] wrote:
> We have a (potential) client who wants their subscribers to be able to
> create a custom document (web page) by picking and choosing from a
> database, which also needs to be printable in Netscape. That's not the
> problem. Our programmer thinks he can manipulate the query and the
> template (Cold Fusion) so it breaks across pages.

How's this? IMO it cannot be done reliably unless you program a 'version'
of your template for every platform/browser that it is being used from. If
you know your customers will be using a specific platform and browser for
this ALL of the time, it is possible.

> The problem is that the client also wants the document to be
> downloadable, camera-ready, for offset printing. Forgetting for a
> moment that the resolution is too low, how can we take the dynamically
> generated page and slop the content into something that can be
> downloaded and output for printing?

Does it use graphics geared for the web? If not, make your graphics the
resolution that your printer can handle that will be doing the camera-ready
printing. Everything else should print at the resolution of your printer..
it is your *monitor* that cannot resolve 72/96+ dpi images.. not your
printer.

> We can't really use PDFs because of the need for customization. That
> is, unless the HTML document can be printed to a file or the Acrobat
> Distiller and then sent to a printer.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?

Again.. do you know the platform/browser everyone will be using (i.e. is it
internal?). What web server is publishing it? My only recommendation for
doing this *now* would be to use IIS/ASP and OLE to create word documents
with your information on the fly. You can script this right in and any OLE
browser will be able to pick up the Word document and display it in the
browser window..or a separate link if you so desire. Then you have control.

Brian Platz, Moderator
The WebDevelopment Discussion Digest
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:30:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: Unintentional page reloading

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Caleb Fuller wrote:
[snip]
> Does Netscape even USE the cache? I have my suspicions...
[snip]

One thing to check is what you have your "Check Documents" setting in the
Cache preferences set to. Most developers set it to "Every Time" which
means that even if Netscape loads from the cache, it still has to query
the server to make sure that the cache has the most recent version of
whatever file it's reloading. That way when you FTP a file to the server
and go to look at it you're sure you have to proper version.

The default setting, however, is (I believe) "Once Per Session" which
means that after Netscape has checked the server once it should never do
it again during that session unless you specifically tell it to (hold the
Shift key and press the Reload button).

Anyways, enough techie stuff... Just a reminder, I'm compiling a FAQ
(frequently asked questions) for this mailing list, so if you have a
question you think should be included, mail it to me at
pglendinning@cen.com with the subject line "BabbleFAQ" or just click this
link:
mailto:pglendinning@cen.com?subject=BabbleFAQ

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:17:55 -0500
From: "Lance Arthur" <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: background as nav image

<SELFPROMO WEIGHT="HEAVY">You can also see a variation on this theme by
visiting http://soulflare.com/enlighten/faraway/ and have a look at the
remote that opens. For some reason, I just discovered that IE4.01 hates this
page's JavaScript so you'll only be able to see it in Netscape (until I
figure out why Microsoft keeps screwing with their *own* proprietary
codes).</SELFPROMO>

Lance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:49:52 -0500
From: John Shelley <js@gdnctr.com>
Subject: Rollover Script?

Season's Greetings, O Web Architects...

New to JavaScript and wanting to make the
HTML links change color on my nav-bar at
(http://www.gdnctr.com/index2.htm), where
can i get a look at some JS scripts to learn
from and adapt to my site?

best,
john shelley

____john shelley___________________________

"Governments, like diapers, should be
changed often, and for the same reason."

_________________________www.gdnctr.com____
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:43:22 -0500
From: "George S. Williams" <sterling@exis.net>
Subject: Re: Rollover Script?

At 08:49 PM 12/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Season's Greetings, O Web Architects...
>
>New to JavaScript and wanting to make the

The best tutorial I've found is Voodoo's Intro to JavaScript

at http://rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de/~skoch/

You can even download a copy.

Happy holidays,
georgew

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:48:23 -0500
From: Dana Adams <dana@studiowerks.com>
Subject: Re: From web to print!?!

John Bedard wrote:
> We can't really use PDFs because of the need for customization. That
> is, unless the HTML document can be printed to a file or the Acrobat
> Distiller and then sent to a printer.

Why not? Don't discount this method too quickly. There are a number of
sites in the financial services world that require, from a "securities
compliance" perspective, un-editable document distribution. That
requirement flies in the face of "custom" information delivery.
Manufacturing .PDFs on the fly is done on the web and done well. The
obvious benefits are small portable files which can be protected against
even cut & paste and fabulous print rendering -- give the PDF a second &
closer look...

- --

jekyl \ National Life of Vermont \ mailto:adams_dana@nlvmail.com \
http://www.nlv.com
hyde \ s t u d i o w e r k s \ mailto:dana@studiowerks.com \
http://www.studiowerks.com

a do do do, a da da da, that's all i want to say to you...
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:21:47 -0500
From: "David R. Israel" <davidi@mail.wizard.net>
Subject: Re: horizontal scrolling

Dear Babble-wallas,

as I scroll vertically through recent digests, I've been rather
delighted to find that horizontal scrolling is among the topi of
moment. Just briefly on a conceptual note, doubtless some readers
may have had occasion to acquaint the distinctive art-presentation
format that was especially prized by literati-painters of East Asia
in past centuries, -- I allude of course to the "hand scroll". Both
Chinese and Japanese brush-&-ink painters developed this intimate
mode of showing a time-based, narrative concept of the painting --
usually used for an extended landscape, often presenting the idea (or
indeed, a specific narrative illustrating) a journey, and sometimes
- -- as in one famous Japanese instance -- managing to span all four
seasons in the time-lapse-like horizontal trajectory.

The dimensions of the hand-scroll are, in terms of silk-mounted ink
paintings, narrow but long. While vertical hanging scrolls are
conceived to be viewed all at once, the horizontal handscroll is
specifically designed to be view bit-by-bit -- maybe a couple feet at
a time -- as the individual viewer gradually unrolls the lengthy
scroll (which might be only a foot or so wide) such that the scroll,
unwinding from the left side and re-winding on the right side, offers
a cinema-like -- while yet still -- prospect of the world in
miniature. (Anyway, that's how Prof. James Cahill more or less
explained the thing to we undergrads at UC Berkeley in the '70s,
though whatever rhetorical balderdash may habit the above cannot
rightfully be laid at other than the present key-er's door.)

/ / / /

As a sometime-painter and (soon-to-be)-webdesign newbie, I've been
looking forward to many possibilities that a combination of these two
media might allow -- and have thought particularly of horizontal
scrolling as one interesting arena for a combination of the twain.

I thus look forward to perusing your esteemed remarks and proffered
URLs at further leisure, in due course.

Meanwhile, here's one I chanced on tonight:

http://www.powershot.com/widestweb/main.html

The horizontal work itself is perhaps a bit simplistic & hokey
(though maybe that's in tune w/ the desired concept), but in any
case, the long, narrow scroll (proceeding, of course, in the Western
world's reading-toward-the-right fashion, rather than the East Asian
reading-to-the-left custom) accentuates the horizontal qua
horizontal, via a long view of the literal (oceanscape) horizon.

cheers,
d.i.

david raphael israel
washington d c
davidi@mail.wizard.net (home)
disrael@skgf.com (office)
"Day after day I float my paper boats . . . " - Tagore
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:32:12 -0500
From: "David R. Israel" <davidi@mail.wizard.net>
Subject: Re: horizontal scrolling (p.s.)

Short erratum,

I wrote --

> . . . . as the individual viewer gradually unrolls the lengthy
> scroll (which might be only a foot or so wide) such that the scroll,
> unwinding from the left side and re-winding on the right side,
> offers a cinema-like -- while yet still -- prospect of the world in
> miniature.

pardon, I had that backwards. The writing (as typically there may be
some lines of prose &/or poetry amid the painting) proceeds -- like
all pre-modern Chinese & Japanese writing -- in top-to-bottom columns
that start at the upper right and proceed across the page toward the
left. To *read* such writing (and hence, to "read" a painting
modeled after that direction), one would unroll the handscroll which,
when fully rolled, would sit to one's left, and when completed, would
be in a new coil at one's right. Thus, the direction indeed is -- as
I was trying to point out above (but got it mixed up) -- opposite to
that seen in the website horiz.-scroll mentioned.

(sorry to be so longwinded in tangential minutae . . . )
d.i.
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End of babble-digest V1 #94
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