Posted by LP on November 20, 1997 at 09:49:56:
In Reply to: Re: Santino vs. Armand posted by Heather on November 20, 1997 at 01:52:10:
:
: : : : yeah, but Khayman likes Armand, and he is stronger than Eric. (I feel silly, but I am really having fun).
: : : But Khayman doesn't pay much attention to minor things like civil wars and dissention among the ranks. And if Khayman did anything against Eric, Maharet might just get involved. She still cares deeply for him, even though she doesn't much like Santino.
: : I am sure Khayman would be at Armand's side. And besides, Maharet would agree to have her baby rid from Santino.
: : : Also something else. We don't know exactly how powerful Eric is, but my guess is that he is equal or above Lestat. He has traveled with Maharet for at least a thousand years, and I *highly* doubt that that relationship was all platonic. More likely that there was quite a bit of blood sharing over the years and since Maharet is fourth down form the source of all power, that blood, combined with Eric's own age, would make him really, really strong. So Khayman is probably not all that much stronger than Eric, for surely there must be a power thresh-hold for the vampires.
: : Yeah, but if Maharet and Khayman get rid of santino together...
: : : : Well, Marius certainly *dissapeared* after that. But Santino made all that mess for nothing, he could have learned a lot from Marius. Finally, he, Santino, also had to change.
: : : Yeah, right! Marius would have killed him. Remember Marius told Lestat that he had killed other vampires for knowing the old legends. (Did he ever go after any because they knew *him*? I can't remember. Marius would have taught Santino nothing. Why should Santino try to learn from him then, especially when he was a threat to his power?
: : : Santino was right not to try and learn anything from Marius. If the legends had not been true, yet Santino spared Marius, this would only have given Marius an opportunity to gather his power and grind Santino into vampire meat.
: : Well, maybe Marius would have killed him. But do you really think it would be a great tragedy? (running to hide behind Armand so you can't catch me)
: : : : And Armand won that game! (smile)
: : : He did not!!
: : He did.
: : Cecilia
:
: All right Children...
*shuffling of feet* Yes, Mommy?
: Nobody won the game...
They just left the game hanging!? What the ---
: There was no game...
Stat lied?
: There never was a competition...
Maybe, maybe not. I'll address this below.
: You both have got it in your heads that Santino and Armand are the two most deceitful vampires to ever prowl the face of the earth...
Not at all. Well, perhaps Armand. But then, if you really look at Armand is action are really quite very clear.
However. There is a huge difference betwen deceitfulness and knowing how to manipulate events to your own convenience. I don't think Santy is deceitful. But I do think that it took a good amount of strategy to form and hold together the coven, even under those laws. Those laws Santino created do not allow for weakness on the part of the coven leader. Now, answer me one question. Why would Santino put such laws into effect under such a conditions if he were not ruthless?
: You actually think that they had this grudge match going for 500 years?
No. Not a grudge match. But Armand and Santino are most likely not friends. Armand doesn't have a forgiving nature, and Santino essentially has an "I don't give a fuck" nature. This does not lead to a grudge match, otherwise they mught have actively hunted one another down, well more likely Armand hunting Santino. However, it doesn't mean that they can't still challenge each other to a game of chess and size each other up. Test each other after all the years.
: Santino:
: Santino was a fledling vampire when he developed the first coven...
He was lucky if he was three years a vampire. Though there were some minor outbreaks of Plague in the 1320's in Italia. But Santino said the time of the plague. Most likely he was made in 1346-1347.
:He still thought like a human when this happened hell bent on revenge...
Prove why he would be hell bent on revenge. And remember there can be some very vicious humans out there, without even trying to be. And there are also natural stragegists. And natural leaders. If Santino were made to be coven leader, which it appears he was, or at least he may have been groomed for the part, might he not have been chosen for these very qualities?
:In his grief he made up a coven where a group of vampires can live together peacably without the threat of another vampire destroying them...
Yeah, no threat in having possible challengers, and no threat setting up rules which allow for no weakness or hesitation on the part of the leader. There is no overt threat, however, there is an implicit danger constantly over the head of any leader of a coven. There is always the chance for the coven to turn against the leader.
:They of course, had to have rules and Santino had a vision one night that vampires were of the devil...
He said he had a vision. Yes, they had to have rules. But why those rules. I will say again. Santino does not act as one who has lost his faith, or who cares that god may have abandoned him.
:So he went with that...Like I said before, Santino was a fledgling...He hadn't even lived a century yet...Knowledge takes time...
But natural talents do not. Oh, expanding, honing and sharpening them does, yes, but if the initial talent and/or charisma is there... I seem to remember some guy named Alexander taking over his known world before he was 31.
: Santino didn't kill Armand because Armand was an impressionable young fledgling who could easily learn and obey the laws of the coven...
I said that.
:It wasn't to ruin Armand or Marius...Covens are always looking for new followers...
Yes it was not to ruin A or M. Yes, covens are always looking for new followers. However, makes you wonder what would have happened to Armand had he not been as studious as he was learnign the rules and obeying them. But ya Armand wondered that too.
: Simple...I don't see why you have to make everything so complicated...
Because there are only very few times in history when the workings of the human mind have ever been simple. There are very few people so focused as to have only one goal in mind when they do something. Even something as simple as eating. When you eat, you do so to nourish yourself, yes? Make me believe that you do not also consider your taste buds as well when you decide what to nourish yourself with.
:In your everyday lives do you think about deceit and plotting?
Deceit? No. Plotting? Not necessarily in the bad term that you are holding the word, but answer me a question. When someone asks you how they look,and they don't look good in that outfit or something, why do you try and soften your reaction when you tell them. Why not just say that they look awful, or whatever the truth may be? Because you don't want to hurt your feelings. Why not? There is plotting involved in there, even if you do not want to give it such an awful sounding name.
:Very few people do...Vampires are no exception to this rule...
Vampires have human emotions and human failings. There minds work somewhat like humans, but don't forget that their emotions are magnified. As are other parts of their personalities.
: Years later Santino lost his faith in everything he had worked so hard to accomplish...
I really don't believe Santino believed in his own rules. I'd have to pull out my book to form a proof, and I don't have time right now, but if you want me to I'll try over the weekend. (I've got a few too many papers due.)
:Doesn't neccesarily mean Mael or anyone else was after him...
No, but someone could have been.
:Doesn't even mean that someone convinced him that his ways were wrong..He just had a :revelation that everything he'd been doing was based on a lie...The same thing can :happen to a mortal...
Yup, I know. I seen it happen. Not a pretty sight. But if he suddenly realized fow awful and wrong he had been--why didn't he clean up after himself? He had the right as coven leader to kill his coven. He did nothing to affect any kind of change. He simply disappeared into the world.
: So Santino abandoned his coven...For the very simple reason of the fact that he didn't want to confront his children...He didn't want to have to tell them that everything he'd been teaching them for 600 years was a lie...
Less than 600. More like sixty. He probably only ruled the coven for 130 years. Didn't want to confront his children? Santino's personality in the rest of the book does not have a "lets avoid conflict" air. He openly argues heatedly with Maharet, bristles with Mael, is unfazed by failing to kill Marius (though he may not have knownabout that). Why would he be unwilling to face his children?
: Santino made a mistake...That's all..He regrets it now as would any mortal who made a drastic mistake...
Does he? Didn't seem so when he bristled with Mael.
: Armand is a different story...He has to be deceitful...Can you blame him?
No.
:He has the face and body of a 17 year old boy....He has had a shitty life with nothing but bad luck...He feels that everyone he has ever loved or cared about has betrayed him...So he uses whatever means he can to get someone to love him...Yes...Even Louis...And Yes, Louis loved Armand...And Louis was attracted to Armand or he wouldn't have let his guard down when Claudia was destroyed...He wouldn't have left with Armand instead of Lestat...And don't give me that crap that Louis thought that Lestat was dead...Louis went into every room of that theatre when he was destroying it and he didn't see Lestat...He knows he didn't kill Lestat...He just uses that for an excuse so he can leave with Armand...Denial perhaps..Call it what you will...
: All in all..IT's very simple...Not complicated at all...I felt while reading your arguments that I was reading stereo instructions...Santino isn't evil...Armand isn't evil, though, he'd like to think he is...
I don't believe that they are evil. However, simple they are not. They cannot be made simple. They are not of simple creatures. Being vampires simplifies some things, while drastically complicating others.
They were once human being like you or me who were given the dark gift...May I ask what you would do if the same happened to you?
Kill to survive. Live quite happily without the sun. Continue to watch Highlander and The Pretender and study history. Very likely break off the ties I have with people right now. Or do you mean what would I do had I been in Santy's and Armand's places? I would most certainly *not* suddenly take up religion. I would not suddenly believe there were a god. I would however, placed in the circumstances of a coven, *pretend* that I did, gain the coven's trust, and give them several opportunities of proof for that trust. I would not choose the first window of opportunity to escape, but mind you, I would eventually escape, and then they would not find me, even if I had to dig a hole and hide in the ground for three centuries.
: Vampires are not gods...They are flesh and blood...They think...They feel...They long...They suffer an enternity of lonliness...
And they are subject to human failings, and human thought processes.
: They do what they have to in order to survive...
And they do what they want to as well. And if that includes grasping for power, then they will do it.
: That's why Armand and Lestat are my favorites...
Lestat is great. And contrary to what I have written in both my arguements and my stories, I really do very much like Armand. I just have more respect for Santino.
: And that's also why I admire Santino so much...They all survive no matter what they have experienced in their lives...They survive...
Sometimes.
: Everyone makes Santino out to be the bad guy...
I have never done this. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for Santino. Yes, he was the leader of a bad group for a long time, but it took talent to get that group to adhere to those rules he created. It took ruthlessness to keep them in line, and draw and subdue rogue vampires. It took charisma and good leadership abilities to keep the entire coven from rebelling under those conditions. It took courage to leave the coven scene for good and not return to what was probably the only thing he had ever known. These things are worthy of admiration.
But also note that I understand what being a vampire in the Ricean universe is like. I know that Santino is ruthless. I know that Armand is as well. I know that the vampires are dangerous. But I also know that they have deep human thoughts and emotions.
:Why? Because he made a few mistakes?
He did what he felt was necessary.
: He learned from them and has moved on...So has Armand...There is no game...If there ever was, it was finished a long time ago...
Don't be so certain of that. Human emotions are tricky suckers.
: Heather
(grin) Welcome to the conversation. LP.