This is the transcript of an email conversation with someone who was considering buying an older, somewhat neglected boat. Hopefully you will find it helpful.
I love to discuss sailing and my boat in particular, so if you have more questions, please do not hesitate to write to me!
--- jon wrote:
I came across your website while doing some research on the Northstar 40. I am considering buying a Hughes Northstar 40 1977 as a liveaboard/ cruiser (with refit for some bluewater) and was looking for any comments from current owners as to suitability, sailing characteristics etc.
My sailing partner is a novice and is concerned about the age of the boat and suitability, particularly for blue-water cruising. As such I am looking for a robust boat that is both seaworthy dry and reliable. As such I am looking for hands on advise and comments from current Northstar 40 owners, also if there are any additional information sources on this type of vessel.
I thank you in anticipation of your response.
Jon
From: Bill
To: jon
Subject: Re: Northstar
Jon,
Overall, for a liveaboard/cruising boat I give my Northstar high marks. Like any boat, there are tradeoffs in the design. For example, I love the shallow draft while I am sailing downwind or poking around in a shallow anchorage, but while I am beating to weather making more leeway than the competition, I wish that keel reached a bit deeper.
We have found the Northstar to be a boat with a comfortable, easy motion in a seaway. For a center cockpit boat, she is quite dry, but your impression of that may depend a lot on the design of the dodger installed.
Here in San Francisco Bay we routinely subject her to sailing in winds of 30+ knots and she handles it with style, or at least she did after I learned when and how much to reef. Offshore she is great. Once you learn the tricks of the ketch rig, you can have her balanced so she practically sails herself on most points of sail. In very heavy weather she heaves to nicely under mizzen alone, parking well at about 40 degrees to the wind and just bobbing along comfortably. I do a lot of drift fishing hove to like this.
Downwind she is fast. In strong wind she screams along on a reach. Upwind she lags behind the rest of the fleet, but keeps on trucking. Nothing surprising from a shallow draft ketch. She stands up to sail well. If you are sailing her with the rail in the water you have WAY too much sail up.
Any boat pushing 30 years old needs to be evaluated carefully for wear and tear. I can give you a quick rundown on the things I have seen with my boat and others of the same design I have seen or heard of.
Good news first:
From the Hughes and Northstar line I have never heard of a boat with serious blister problems. The Swift 40 built to almost the exact same design in the Far East by SwallowCraft is a different story. I have heard of at least one that had to have her gelcoat stripped and dried out. Last haulout of my boat I found one or two minor blisters that were easily and simply repaired.
The original engine on my boat is a Westerbeke 4-154. It has over 6000 hours(!) on it, and is still going strong. Some of the boats I have seen repowered with larger engines (up to 75 HP), but I am not sure that is a useful improvement.
Masts are significantly larger in diameter and stronger than typical. I like the single spreader design for its simplicity and robustness.
Now, Things to watch for:
These boats were designed with a galvanized steel framework that forms the mast step and forward floor structure. A large I-beam runs from the mast step forward. The forward part of the keel is bolted to the bottom flange of this beam. Some of these boats were built with out sufficient limber holes in the forward floor beams, which allowed water to pool under and on the steel beam leading to rusting. If this rust is serious, it would be expensive and difficult to repair. First signs of a problem with this structure would be a hairline crack between the keel and hull at the front of the keel. No serious rust, no problem.
Chainplates are well attached to the hull, but be sure that the surveyor checks them and their bolts closely. The method of attachment makes them a nightmare to replace, but it is possible. If needed, I can help with suggestions on that.
The water tanks in the original S&S design were spec’d as monel, but they were installed as fiberglass with aluminum plates on the fore and aft ends to give something to screw the fittings into.
The original fiberglass cabinsoles are strong enough, but not very stiff. They were covered with a decorative layer of 1/4 inch teak plywood. Some boats had carpet (yuck!) in the foreward and aft cabins. An ongoing project on my boat is to upgrade the soles with an extra 3/4 inch of plywood covered with mahogany and epoxy.
Those are all of the design issues I can think of. Other problems could of course come from someone’s lack of maintenance, or just dumb ideas.
Good Luck, let me know if you have any specific questions. I think these are great boats, and they can be had for a good price. And for what it’s worth, here is someone else’s opinion (see the end of the page) http://www.bayharbouryachts.on.ca/fame.htm
Bill Kinney
S/V Fetchin' Ketch
Sausalito, CA
http://geocities.datacellar.net/bill_knny
--- jon wrote:
Bill,
I had a closer look at the Hughes this weekend and managed to get a copy of a valuation survey conducted on it in April of this year. There were a couple of issues that perhaps you could advise me on.
On lifting some of the sole panels, we found extensive greenish corrosion on the water tanks and the Y-valves, basically they will have to be replaced also the boat only has a direct overboard head system, no holding system, how has your Hughes been modified to resolve this??. Also there was some corrosion on the engine mounts. I suspect at some one of the sea cocks failed and there was water sitting in there for a long time. The boat has basically been moored up for the last 4 yrs or so. Can you give me a little more information on the chain plate system, as the survey noted some deficiencies though didn't outline them more fully. There was evidence of deck level filling around the chain plates.
The main mast step was Ok but can you give me some more info on how the mizzen mast is stepped??
Most of the other issues related to electrical systems and grounding.
Also there was additional trim ballast in the V-Berth and Portside midships / aft- any suggestions??/
Regards,
Jon
From: Bill Kinney [mailto:greatketch@yahoo.com]
To: jon
Subject: RE: Northstar
Jon,
I am a bit surprised at "greenish" corrosion on the water tanks. The tanks in my boat are fiberglass, and any corrosion on the endplates would be white, not green. If you are thinking the tanks themselves need to be replaced, that is a major job. They will have to be cut out, and if you want tanks of a similar size, they will need to be fabricated in place. An alternative is to use the existing tanks as holders for flexible bladder tanks. If it is just the valves that need to go, that should be easy.
On my boat the original lining in the water tanks has failed, and is peeling off in great sheets. The fiberglass underneath is solid and without obvious flaws. After almost 30 years, the fiberglass is cured enough that it no longer imparts a noticable taste to the water. The vent hoses were completely clogged. This allowed a previous owner to split the seam of the port side tank when filling faster than the pressure could vent. Some fiberglass and epoxy and it is back leak free again.
In my boat I installed a 35 gallon flexible bladder tank that serves as its holding tank. It is located under the settee on the port side (some boats had the batteries installed here). A pumpout fitting and its plumbing was installed behind the hanging locker directly across from the head. The trim at the back of the closet comes out relatively easily. It can be a challenge running the tubing, but it is possible!
Chainplates are bolted to "C" shaped sections which were then fiberglassed to the hull. They penetrate the deck through simple holes. There is nothing wrong with this until you need to replace the chainplates. The nuts are inaccessible. The primary maintenance is to keep the deck penetrations sealed well enough that saltwater doesn't have access to the metal. It is stainless, but saltwater is still a problem over the long haul. Replacing them is possible (I have done two). Once you know how, the biggest problem is access. Since access is difficult, sometimes the surveyors put in some cautionary comments, that really mean they could not/did not look closely.
The mizzen mast steps on fiberglass, so there shouldn't be any issues there.
My boat is a full time liveaboard, and with all of our crap she still sits just about smack on her designed waterline. I can't imagine why someone would put trim ballast forward and aft. For boathandling that is exactly the WORST place to put extra weight. I can imaging if you loaded up the lazarette with a TON of stuff, you might need to put some weight on the port side to balance, but you would need a lot of stuff!
Regards,
Bill
--- jon wrote:
Bill,
I'm convinced that all the water tanks along with the associated pluming will need to be replaced.had a provisional quote of $4k to have it done at a yard, if I decide to proceed I will probably have them do the holding tank at the same time.
I guess I'll just have my surveyor pay extra attention to the chain plates, as I said at least two of them look like there could have been deck penetration.
I am also bewildered by the additional ballast. One other comment that I didn't mention previously was that the main mast was "spliced above the spreader"......although this didn't seem any concern to the surveyor......
All in all looks like a fair amount of work to potentially do on this vessel, especially with respect to the wiring systems which appear to have a lot of dead-end or adrift wiring and no DC bonding system.
Appreciate your comments and experience on this type of boat.
Regards,
Jon.
From: Bill Kinney [mailto:greatketch@yahoo.com]
To: jon
Subject: RE: Northstar
The easy part: Don't worry a bit about the splice in the mast. It was made that way.
The chainplates might be just fine, but one can only know if one looks. These are no more likely to be damaged than those on any similar vessel, they are just hard to replace.
As for if it is all worth it, that depends on your tolerance for managing the work and the price you pay for the vessel.
Best of luck!
Bill
--- jon wrote:
Thanks Bill,
One more quick question the boat has roller furling headsail, in this circumstance, with no free stay where is the storm jib, short of the nightmare of having to remove the genoa from the roller furler. Is it standard to add an inner forestay on the Hughes, if so any comments??
Once again many thanks.
Jon.
From: Bill Kinney [mailto:greatketch@yahoo.com]
To: jon
Subject: RE: Northstar
Jon,
The single spreader rig makes it tough to add a traditional inner forestay, since is no easy way to rig the running backstays to counter the forward pull of the forestay.
After a lot of consideration, I have decided to add a "solant stay". This is a removable stay that attaches right up near the top of the mast and near the base of the forestay. (Since this is only a plan, it may change yet!)
You can either rig this as a plain stay and hank on sails, or go with the ProFurl EC system for a removable furling system.
Hard to tell you exactly how difficult this would be, my boat has a heavily modified stem head and has an easy attachment point. The boat you might or might not have such a point.
In any event, a large genoa isn’t a great advantage on this boat. The 110% working jib really should be your general purpose sail Roller furled to 85-90% that will easy take you up to 40 or 45 knots. Drop the main completely and sail jib and jigger, and I haven’t yet seen the wind that this is too much sail for.
Bill
Did he actually buy this boat? I don't know, but since this is where our conversation ended, so I think he decided this "project boat" was more work than he was looking for.
If you want more detailed information, or are interested in a topic not covered above, or just have a question about the boat in general, drop me a line! I'd love to hear from you.
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