As in the place that used to report for the shipping forecast. Back when they had reports from coastal stations...

A word to the wise. After discussing Mae's pens, there will be a brief word on body image. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Britt
Well, I'm so terribly sorry.
Thank you for these sincere words.

Another good source

I don't think it's considered a chain if it's sent in good meaning,
It wasn't sent in good faith. Not originally.

with no threats and no commands to pass it on.
Then what does

Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your on-line friends ASAP.

Now, let's stop beating ourselves up and move on to more interesting matters. Like, Britt's words on
Blockbuster drug tests
They do? Now, many of the assistants I've seen round here look like they might do illicit substances, but I never knew it was a condition of employment. Craziness.

That quiz, the edited highlights thereof

ESSENTIALS
B-day: November 1 '7notmuchatall
City/State: Codsall, Staffs, UK
Lefty/Righty/Ambi: ambi/right

FAVES
4 Letter Word: Mail
Cartoon: the Simpsons
Cereal: Raisin Splitz
Chewing Gum: Eeeeewww, nooooo!!
Color: crimson, purple, sky blue, gold, silver, royal blue
Holiday: In St John's, usually
Hour of Day: 8 pm
Magazines: Private Eye, Rolling Stone, Spin, EW, Q, Spectator, Slate
Place/Town: St John's, NF; Cabot Square, London; Wolverhampton
TV Channel: (5), 4, 2, uk:play, BBC Cockup 24.
Type of Tunes: Pretty much anything good

ONLINE STUFF
Webpage: See every sig
What U hate about AOL: They who ask really dumb questions
What U like about AOL:
If you could terminate someones AOL: Just a short list...

ODDITIES
Piercings: Nope
Tattoos: Nope

WHICH IS BETTER
Coke/Sprite: pepis (sp)
Diamonds/Pearls: diamonds
Disney/Warner Bros: Warners!
Kissing/Hugging: hugging
McD's/Burger King: Pret a Manger

FRIENDSHIP & LOVE & ALL THAT JAZZ
Do you believe in love at first sight? Nope.
Do you have a crush on a school mate/coworker? Not any more.
Do you want children one day & if so, how many? Like, no
First thing you notice in the opposite sex: hair
If you really liked someone but they just wanted to use you for sex, would you let them: No.
What do you think is a good age to get married? 24 and a half

Sasha, welcome back.

Cyrille
i watch the video 1979 (smashing pumpkins) and in my head the end of mscl is a little bit close to that,
Too right, good sir. Wouldn't surprise me if that was a deliberate feel -- heck, what year was Claire Danes born in?

Now, I gather that Prime Meddler Blah is to nationalise the church's role in pastoral care. Registrars of births, marriages and deaths will urge parents who don't attend church to put their offspring through a secular naming ceremony. All couples are to be given marriage guidance hotlines. I don't like this one little bit. It smacks of telling me what to do. Of forcing information that I don't want or need. Applying undue pressure; there are good reasons why I don't want churches to be involved in my life, and I don't like the government telling me that They Know Better. These proposals are going to die from lack of use, I'm sure.

Candy on la Danes pretending to be Dan Quayle
she should've realized that she was filming in a mental(?) hospital, and that things are supposed to be like that.
Are they? Is there a good reason for creepy-crawlies and rats to be running around a place that treats the ill?

guess what, we're actually civilized!!!
Where was that ever in doubt? Like, where is it stated or clearly implied that may not be the case? I can't find such a reference.

and she should've thought about the asian ppl who would be reading that article.
To whom is this addressed? Danes, the reporter, the editor..? They all had a hand in the production of the article.

and she's a yale student, can ya believe that?
So was Bill Clintern, to pick an example out of thin air.

Mae's experience
This guard started following me... he asked me if I forgot to pay for the pens....
Hmm. Did you think to make a citizen's arrest over his stalking of you? Will you be filing lawsuits for this blatant harrassment? Indeed, would you care to name the store so that I don't patronise them by accident, in the (all too unlikely) event I'm ever shopping in Manila?

Body image bit next. Skip here to avoid it.

Flix. I believe it's customary in these parts to hang a sign at the front of posts discussing body images. Especially in the highly normative manner that you did.
i know there are a few women in hollywood that aren't thin like that....and actually have talent....
Suggesting that thin people have no talent. It may be the case, but I wouldn't care to make that assertion.

they HAVE to because they can't sell themselves with their body
Now, to me, this reads that you're implying that non-stick people aren't sexy. Think it through. Is that what you want to say? If it is, then this could be a very short correspondence.

kate winslet isn't nearly as thin as most actresses either.
Kinked Eyebrows has, however, more talent in the fingernail of her little finger than many of the dolly birds of modern cinema. The words "Liv Tyler", "Uma Thurmann" and, yes, "Julia Roberts" spring directly to mind.

Those of you skipping can come back now.

Talking stats
conspiracy theory TOTALLY flopped in america
Two weeks at #1 in the UK, three weeks in France, time at the top in six other European territories. It may not quite equate to a big Canadian smash, but they'll still have made their money back. (CAN figures include those for the south-facing veranda.)

Indigo
HUNCHBACK was great for a movie. Who gives a damn that it wasn't precise as the book.

Was it Boyz II Men, All IV One, or Vic Reeves and the Roman Numerals?

Brum: cloudy & 15 * icq 14441391 * someday, when we are wiser
Keeper of Brian's calendar, where it's Tuesday the 37rd

ok, here's the extract (23 seconds, real audio, 50K)

What does "cloudy" mean to you? Does it mean it's going to rain? Does it mean it'll snow? Or sleet? Find out the answer. Now. At a weaver.radio near you.

And now: what's in my pocket. Or, in this case, my rucksack.

• A copy of today's newspaper
• A sandwich box, containing food before lunch (odd, that)
• Between two and four floppy disks
• A pen
• A piece of paper on which I write the songs I hear - that counts towards weaver.charts
• A battered copy of "Life, the Universe and Everything"
• Train timetables: Central on the W'ton- Brum-Coventry line, Silverlink and Virgin down to London
• A pack of asprins
• A pack of gelsenium tablets, for hayfever and dust
• A purple bead necklace
• Some glitter powder
• One carnet ticket for the tube, valid till 30/11/98
• A small analogue radio, tuned to BBC4
• My travel pass
• A baby blue Fusion purse, containing about 25 pounds
• A set of cards: one Midland, one Goldfish, one BT phone card with 4 units left, one BT calling card with freephone contacts to call home
• A receipt for 20 pounds from the ATM at International station
• A folded up red waist-length light jacket
• An umbrella

That's all in a fairly large red rucksack, slightly darker than crimson, in five pockets (one invisible).

Mae on Danes being banned in Manila
It's really sad because she has such a strong following here
So, is this move going to rebound on the politicians in a few years' time? Indeed, will someone stand on an "Endorsed by Claire Danes" ticket at the next election and sweep onto the council?

Now, a quick outbreak of Pro and Con. The issue under debate: Roman should not post.
Pro: (er) (erm) (um) there isn't any.
Con: We lose a sensible, intelligent, quality poster.
The proposal is defeated. Roman, post lots. And ignore the sniping. It shows that people read what you write.

Flix
if that was the truth and you were just "giving prospective" then why didn't you state any of the info. in courtney's defense??
Let me jump in here. The case that Cobain's death was suicide has been stated in many, many fora. It's become the truth as it's generally understood. It's not unreasonable that someone giving perspective should take this side as read.

It doesnt hold water less you show both sides
In this case, it's reasonable to assume the other side is known. Even if not, marshalling arguments to make reach a conclusion while not paying that much attention to the other side is a valid, although not that respected, method of argument.

Angela
I will be there from 8:30 (Detroit time) to 11 pm!
You know, I need to learn some Java script, so that I can write a simple little program that will compute these time equivalances and display them in some nifty boxes. 8:30 DET is... 5:30 San Diego, 10 o'clock Clarenville, 01:30 on the Azores, 7am Delhi.

Kris on old topics (like, what's in your wallet:)
what if we got their permission on the reposting of what they wrote
Heck, maybe I didn't explain myself well. My point was that reposting what's gone on before turns this into a re-runs list. And I'd sooner see new material on this list, even if it's going over ground we visited 6, 12, 18 months ago. Heck, if someone wants to return to a topic they see from my old posts from January, go right ahead. But I'd prefer not to see whole pieces of history posted verbatim.

Kris on another thing
Sometimes in life, some rain must fall. The person will soon realize that behind the clouds the sun is still shining.
Ah, pull the other one. It has bells on it. Quite frankly, that's making an assumption that may not be factual for everyone. In point of fact, it's still pretty cloudy here in weaver.valley.

Then there's the matter of video store cards. At my local video store, the rule is simple. No card, no video. First card is free. Replacements are three quid each. I think they do one a night.

Deca
that's what I was thinking as well (but was too afraid to post;)
This, my friends, is what happens when people just don't have the guts to put forward their own ideas. Bad things happen. Mother- suckers get into the White House (Let me think about that one some more...) Michael Flatley becomes a huge star. The German EuroSong heats are held in Bremen.

Judy V on our Robbie and "Angels"
I think that's a great song! Too bad about the singer though.
Mmm, what's wrong with the Robster?

Seen his clip? what a shocker.
Ah, which one? The cornfield? The Queen take-off? That Bond tush?

"he likes the blonde one, he likes the cute one / cute ones are usually gay" - from "destiny calling", on james' greatest hits album

Huey
his new song, Millenium, is shit though
This Is True. [obthisistrue] Why was it that when "Millennium" first went to radio, airplay of "Angels" rose 22% in one week? Answers on a postcard to...

uk:play will be one of the bbc's digital tv channels, set to start in november. it will show music videos and concerts and no-one should mention mtv in close proximity.

Kris asks
What would Brem have said right now?
"Salutations", most probably. And "Bless". And he would most likely have signed off with "I'm serious as cancer".

Kris, Lauren and Flix are going to work at Blockbuster. Heck, I've been on "Blockbusters", the tv quiz show with Bob Holness. My 19 minutes of televisual fame. Though the show and the video chain have nothing to do with each other, I suppose that lets me join the nascent Blockbusters club.

Angela asks
Will those of us who do not work at Blockbuster find large blue seed pods hidden in our closets?
No, you'll just find a polite, hugely intelligent, razor sharp wit asking you questions like, "What AC did Claire Danes play on tv?" Be kind to Bob if you find him, we would like him back at some time.

Stormy Shana's dilema. Sexual violence is certainly not acceptable. Neither, though, is any other kind of violence. From what I hear of that sticker, it could be condoning revenge attacks on alleged perpetrators. I don't like that. I'd rather they were dealt with through the usual channels; if they didn't do anything, then they must not be punished. If they did, then let the sky fall on their heads, quite frankly.

shimelle, I think the article you posted on Cobain's murder was somewhere around late March - early April '97. Digest 4-150-ish, if that's any help. And congrats on being Kansas' Official Source Of All Things Teletubby. Big Hugs!!! [obdipsy]

Buh-bye!!

burning crosses
san fran cops

Codsall: cloudy & 18 * now with burning crosses and a rag on sf cops
keeper brian's wrong calendar * cubs? giants? mets? vote now!

Remember where you hear it first.. BLOBfm in Birmingham have started playing "This Kiss", only six months after Gambo gave the debut. And 10 days after I gave the song a spin on weaver.radio. Yay me (: And yay CMAs, and way-t till the tour. Next year ):

Kent
Even some of our OFF posts, however, do touch on themes and issues raised by MSCL.
Heck, that could apply to almost anything. Such was the broad remit of the programme.

Lauren
I really like that name Toby, it's nice, & it's not too common.
Indeed it is. Of course, it also reminds me of that quaintly English phenomenon, the Toby Jug. It's actually a mug, but made to look like the face of someone famous. They're usually sold as novelties, but there's a bit of a tradition of presenting a "Toby" to someone leaving work or otherwise moving on.

teens are so pure, they don't drink, have sex, smoke or do drugs
Is this show meant to be a fantasy? It sure sounds like one...

The WB has to learn new advertising stratagies, showing the same things 50 times isn't the way to interest the viewers, or at least not this viewer.
Which is just about what contributors to the UK television mailing list say about the BBC's habit of trailing their Saturday shows -- every night from Monday.

Sara
as there were spaces, and I was the best out of the freshman squad. gosh..that sounds conceited.
Never put down to malice what you can explain as a cock-up.
Similarly, never put down to conceit what is a verifiable fact.

Kent again

ozfm

~Laura
There are too many shows to choose from this season! Ugh.
Can you please send some of them over here? I fear that the autumn schedules have already stuck in their staid pattern, and Blackburn are still in European competition. Not promising.

cnn (us) cold war

Next, the grouchy section.
-Laura (gee, that's confuzzling)
You're a real woman now!
Are you insinuating that one cannot become a "real" womin without bearing a child? Does the same standard apply to "real" men? If so, I may just have to take up arms again...

correcting the grammar, not offering an opinion

That's enough grouching for today. Flix again
lately i've been listening to nothing but Hole,
Darling, there is more to life than one band. Whatever that band is.

And how about courtney love? i mean i've always thought she kicked ass but she's really cleaned herself up and stuff....
This has a large element of truth to it, though I've never been that convinced that her musical talents are able to raise her above the fame and/or notoriety of her marriage.

On which Roman adds
I seriously have doubts about the nature of his death.. there'll always be a piece of me somewhere that thinks the circumstances surrounding his "suicide" are less than normal.
Hey! shimelle! Still got that piece you did 18 months ago on this topic? Care to post it again? My copy got cut off half way through, so I can't do that for you all.

Mae
I rarely post.
Shame! Shame!

It just pisses me off big time when people get bitchy like this. Especially about my home.
Perfectly valid reason for that. Who's to argue.

Lisa will be going to York uni about now; Brem got his degree from Bath.

I doubt that any education in the world would do any wonders for their characters.
Bzzzt! Did you actually hear those words spoken? Did you hear the context? No and no. There's obvious hyperbole in the drop quote, and can anyone disprove the existance of two rats in the area? More importantly, how much of this is being twisted by the magazine to increase sales, or local politicians to garner votes?

Note that I'm not endorsing the comments, but asking questions that tacky tabloid journalists can't be bothered to research.

Ariel
i missed the first minutes of ally (the part before they do the intro music...is there a proper term for that?)
The intro, or the tease(r), or the short bit before the opening credits and first ad break. In theory, it should grab your attention and make you want to watch the remainder of the show. In reality, [click]

~Laura
How do you know when love is not enough?
When the alternative has so much more than the relationship you're in that it's blatantly obvious.

How do you know if you haven't just settled for a notion of love to keep you safe and secure and it isn't really love at all?
It all depends on how you wish to define love. Is an over-riding feeling of safety and security incompatible with being in love? Personally, I don't think so. Your mileage may vary.

How do you know when it is time to say it's over?
It almost never is the right time. Just pick one and run with it.

How do you do that all without destroying someone else?
The only way that can happen is if they're thinking about telling you the exact same thing. If they're not, you can't.

Another thing that makes me wonder about all these Fake Virus Scams is this. Why do people always forward all the headers? All the To: lines. Madness! Anyway, the little sh*ts who can ego-surf their way into my killfiles include Robert Pereira, for not checking at all, and Heidi Swanson, guilty of forwarding MIME attachments without good reason.

Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your on-line friends ASAP. Hope this does not get you!
I think it just did.

Now, how's to end this post with a bit of a smile. There's been a bit of talk about angels and such on the list recently, so if all the European listies would care to sing along, please...

#She won't forsake me,
#I'm lovin' angels instead.

BHX: sunny & 22 * with Brian's calendar every month is next month

Hi, hello, g'day.

Angela
What was everyone doing on midnight on Friday?
Sleeping.

Becky returns to last time's meme
you would think that people with the know-how to navigate the information superhighway would have a bit more common sense
LOL! Good one! No, this meme bypasses the usual common sense routines by throwing out an NMI to Avarice Central. People will do the dumbest things for $5000. It takes someone with a fully functioning Doubt Chip to register an implausibility, and start questioning the validity of the original instructions.

That's why I was so hard on the people who claimed to have validated this load of tosh. It lends a false air of truth to the rumour.

I wonder: what are the duties of a prom monarch (or homecoming monarch, for that matter)? Or is it just a sop for the annoying, popular people?

Lauren, welcome aboard.

The established Lauren, thanks for the picture of Travis. Here's a brief snatch:
CAkKCwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcIC
QoLEAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAA
Going on for about 50 screensful. Hint: don't post binaries (pictures or sound files) to the list. Stick them on a web page and post the url for 'em. Cheers.

Goodness, having people called "Hippy" and "Daisy" on the list and posting at the same time means it looks like there's another "Dipsy" on the list. Ack!

late trains

Betsy
we don't number players according to their position or anything like that.
Shame!

IT's like basketball, where you choose any number you want.
Ooh! Can I be number e^pi?

How come the most perfect people live so far away?
Because we're all living in exactly the wrong place.

"There's a long on the fire / And it burns like me for you"
A what on the fire?

Kris' suggestion to resurrect old debates. Why not? What goes around comes around in life anyway. I'd suggest not posting what everyone said at any time, just re-introducing the topic and seeing what develops.

The Wixzard of Salliwoo
I'm going to end up in the same class for dog training as these really horrible group of girls.
There is a blatantly obvious pun there. I'm going to avoid it, and go for the non-obvious pun. Just as "COW" is slang within the BBC for the old Computer-Originated World, and "BOG" the Balloon Off Ground that replaced it, so a "DOG" is a Digitally Originated Graphic. It's most commonly used to refer to the channel's on- screen identity, like NBC's peacock, or CBS's eye, or MTV's (er) MTV.

meldrum home page
andrew wiseman's television room

Brooks suggests IRC at
Thursdays, 9pm EST and Sundays, 1pm EST
Or... 6pm & 10 am PST, 7:30pm & 11:30 am South Park, 11:30pm & 2:30pm NST, 01h Friday & 17h UTC, 3am & 7pm Israel, 9am & 1am Monday Malaysia. One hour earlier UTC from November to March.

"X-Fools" is a spoof of some show or other, that airs on Beacon Radio's breakfast show. And very funny it is, too.

[medical facts give slightly gruesome images in next para]
Britt writes of
Fun times in the ER
Another contradiction in terms, surely. But for those of you in fear of dehydrating, don't forget to take other nutrients beyond water. Not only will it be more interesting, but your blood won't be in such a risk of becoming too thin.

Johnathan, hi.
Who/How old people are here (I'm 25, yes, I know, a geezer),
Rising 25, and having a bit of a mid-life crisis about it ):

and how strict on-topic discussions are.
What's on topic, anyway?

Toby Mac, hi.

Sara
sorry about all the typos I'm sure that I made. I can't really see the computer screen from here while I'm typing, so I probably missed a lot of them.
I think the most alarming thing about all this is that there are fewer typos than usual there. Draw your own conclusions. And turn off your monitor when replying...

Ali enquires
any of you ever won anything on a radios tation? this was my first time!
Ooh, matron! (: Erm, well, I won a CD from Billboard Online earlier this year for knowing Cilla Black never entered the Eurosong finals. And I won lots of goodies from Guild TV when I was at uni, on a quiz show they did. Oh, sorry, that was got to introduce lots of "Goodies" videos. And I won a pack from the UK chart show a few years ago, but that was through their web site.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to sponsor a prize on weaver.radio, please let me know.

Suzanne, hi
Do i have to pay money to be a subcriber?
You don't have to, though if you want to pay us something, we won't say no.

because i love my so called life and claire danes
As do most of us, though not necessarily in that way.

Slate
mscl.com

Francis Park
I am prone to buy books on the basis of "this sounds interesting" and not crack the cover for over a year. I've had a copy of 'Cold Mountain' sitting on my shelf for over a year now and I still haven't read a lick of it. It's somewhere in a stack of unread books that currently measures about 2.5 feet tall (which is a short stack for me).
I seem to have a similar problem with CDs. Too many to buy, too little time to play them in. I finally got through all the CDs I've bought since the beginning of May this weekend. A stack as tall as my speakers.

Brother Robert, hello again. It's (er) been a time (:

See you around...

yes, "something about the way..." both times

Brum: cloudy & 20 * keeper of Brian's calendar, where it's Oct 11
Can #1, 9/27/97: Elton John * Can #1, 9/21/98: Elton John

it's something to do with enabling duplex support on the sound card, apparently.

Well, I suppose it's good news for me. I've managed to get the sound recorder on my computer to record at the same time as it's playing. The uses for taking snatches of real audio files are going to be myriad...

The good lady Cassandra is concerned.
he's really worried that he's going to do something or that he won't see me enuff or talk to me enuff and then our relationship will go down the tubes
Where's the Rossara when we need them (: Proof that relationships conducted primarily through the wires can work. Trust him, and boost his trust in you. It can be done... Nichole, comments?

I finally got my license... I'm 18 years old and I finally got it
They let you drive young over there, said he 25 and sans license.

billboard online

byron
what did everybody read this summer?
The computer press, the general press, this list, and I've just taken delivery of Fred Bronson's book of Billboard Number One Singles. Don't tell me how it ends (:

Oh, that's how they're dealing with Kudrow's kid. Crazyness.

Shobi
Below, you will find me actually agreeing with Sara!
It's a worrying sign, isn't it. Be very wary if you find hairs growing on the palm of your hands. Be even more wary if you start looking for them.

School prayer, voucher programs for private schools, crosses on public property, & myriad other small infractions *are* violations of the establishment clause, but are hardly persecution of nonbelievers.
Interesting... As I've pointed out before, the Church of England is an Established church. It is allowed to appoint governors to schools it co-funds, as are the Catholic, Jewish, Baptist and Islamic faiths. Daily prayer and a daily assembly - of a predominantly Christian nature - are mandatory in state schools, though this law is honoured only in the breach. Crosses can be designed into new publicly funded buildings, though it's very rare to see one. Architectural and/or fashion reasons, I suspect.

Christians are entitled to their hate/disdain/fear of nonbelievers simply because their beliefs are the *one truth* & they need to convert us with evangelistic efforts so we don't all go to hell.
There's a certain logic behind that. Though why these evangelists should concern themselves with other people when their own salvation seems perpetually on the line is something I'm not sure.

Nonbelievers are also seen to be tools of Satan in some circles, meaning that our strange ideas & influence in secular life must be fought against.
Case in point, paraphrased from Thursday's letters page:

"Secular Humanists aim to:

1. Gain control of key positions in the Media.
2. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship and a violation of free speech."
3. Break down morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in the media.
4. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural and healthy."
5. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social religion."
6. Discredit the Bible and emphasise the need for intellectuality without a "religious crutch".
7. Eliminate prayer and religious expression in schools.

So Digital TV Must be Stopped!"

Can we really stop people from holding these opinions? Should we even want to?
Well, the above did give me one real big laugh, which tempts me to say no. But then, I do find it very, very offensive for my opinions to be misrepresented in this way. So, yes, I'd rather they didn't distort the truth and/or my opinions in this way.

the bbc

Shobi again
because of all the driving I have to do, I get a lot of books on tape from the local library. The unabridged versions from Books on Tape Corp. are wonderful.
Blatant plug for the BBC Radio Collection. Lots of fiction, read or acted by some of the finest talents in Britain. And plenty of comedy, and even some factual tapes as well. They are, I believe, available through the BBC website.

All this talk of haiku reminds me of one that sprung to mind a few years ago. We were waiting for Karren Brady, at the time the MD of Birmingham City FC, to take part in a debate about football...

 Karren's fifteen late
   Dragging her pup behind her
The team's going down

Kent on the Beatles
other than to note the giant shadow they cast over the pop music history of the last half-century
Not as big as Bill Haley. Not as influential as Michael Jackson, or Tori Amos. Haley popularised rock & roll. Jacko made it acceptable - nay, desirable - to mine six singles off one album. And Amos made it possible for the genuine female voice to be heard.

In comparison, the Beatles were just the biggest pop act of their day. The Spice Girls, or the Wham!, or the NKOTB of 1963. And if it boils down to a choice between the Posh, Scary, Sporty and Baby splitting up or turning out the prog-rock that is the Beatles after they started believing their own hype, I'll vote for the farewell concert any day.

I've found that Lennon's lyrics tend to inspire reflection long after I've stopped humming.
I find they make me reach straight for the retuning button. Plus ca change...

I think your analysis overemphasizes "equal" while slighting "the love you take" and "the love you make."
A maths major speaks: Things are either equal, or they're not. It's a binary dichotomy.

"The love you take" may be what the individual derives from love but the "love you make" suggests the synergistic energy of the couple, the combined power of the joining that makes love.
I don't doubt that you get that impression from those words. To me, though, it just says that you get out exactly what you put in, and I don't reckon that to be true.

Do all such pop equations literally mean what they say?
Some do, maybe... saints and angels, perhaps...

Does "Silence = Death" as the AIDS activists teach us? Or is one the result of the other? Not all equals are equal after all.
That's just abuse of mathematics. It's true that death implies silence, (not silent implies able to breathe, so not dead), but the converse is clearly not true. Still, what's to be done with an innumerate society?

an extract from johnathan king's "everyone's gone to the moon" from 1965

Now that I've utterly confused myself with my cleverness
And me! I have absolutely no idea what the "chasm between individual and group" you refer to is. But what the heck. It's only a trivial pop lyric. See also "Arms that can only / Lift a spoon / Everyone's gone / To the moon."

White gloves and coats on moment, please. I'm going to dissect a living meme:

The "Let's all go" thing. It's a virus that propagates by this reproduction engine:
if this messages reaches 13,000 people, everyone will receive $5,000 or a free, all expenses paid, trip to Disney World in anytime during the summer of 1999.
A reproduction engine that interacts with the avarice engine in humans, and uses that to reproduce itself. Crude, cheap, but stunningly effective.

Indigo: Please give your friend a Chinese burn from me. Thanks.
Juliana Slye: No-one in your company called ABCuck and confirmed this offer. Stop fibbing in my mailbox.
Joe Iskander, Bill A Moore, Tamara McClure: you also lied about confirming this.
Wondering why I've named them? People will egosurf, and this will be one of their less favoured links. (:

yes, i know that some machines have static ip addresses, but they're in the minority. most ip addys are dynamically allocated.

Here's the facts and fibs
Microsoft has just compiled an e-mail tracing program that tracks everyone to whom this message is forwarded to. It does this through an unique IP (Internet Protocol) address log book database.
Fact: IP does stand for Internet Protocol.
Fact: When using the net, you will probably be using TCP/IP, and be given a 32-bit IP address.
Fact: This address is not specific to your computer, but re-allocated after some hours or days, depending on your ISP's policy.
Fact: When reading an email, there's no reliable way of sending a message back to the sender that you have done so.
So...
Fiction: Microsoft's IP tracker. It's not possible using the existing protocols and technology, no matter what MS's friends - or foes - may say.
Fiction: Well, that pretty much blows the whole thing out of the water, doesn't it.

I was going to add that a reputable, literate company would not use such solecisms as "to whom this message is forwarded to", or "an unique". But then we're dealing with Microsoft and ABCuck...

So, I gather that the cigar's in, but orgasms are out. Further details on CNN, MSNBC, Sky News and BBC Phworagh 24 from 13h UTC Monday...

And, well, it's that time of year for me to go birthday shopping. There was a very nice, gift-wrapped October 3 on the shelf, but I'd rather have a slightly longer build-up than that. November 12 was at a knock-down price, but that's midweek, and I don't want one of those this year. So I've gone for a Sunday, November 1. Not an original choice, but I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

See you all later...

Now with added kids and Haguespeak * keeper of Brian's icky calendar
Codsall: sunny & 21 * just a little divine intervention...

pbs show sesame street in the us,
channel 4 do the honours in the uk.

Spookiness on the train the other night. It was running late, the driver had gone missing earlier, and the guard spoke a lot to us. And he sounded exactly like Sesame Street's Count. "Ze fisst ztop for zis twain vill be Volverhampton. Ze zeccond ztop vill be Ztafford. Ah-ha-ha-ha! First class accommodation iz at ze fwont of ze twain. Zecond class iz at ze reer. Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!"

Kris
within the thin walls of induced stupidity, I found that I have a very sharp mind
This surprises me little. Very little.

Dammit, Brooks covered the other Kenickie base
it is really good, although somewhat diffrent from the first Kenickie
Absolutely true. Well spotted, old chap.

Aeisa
I can write anything to the list... and be able to get a respond no matter how stupid my e-mails are.
Absolutely true. Well spotted, old chap.

Bing!
abstractly (<--- is that a word).
Is it composed of letters? Yes. Does it bear some superficial resemblence to the underlying grammatical structure of a language? Yes. Does it convey a sense that the writer probably intended it to? Yes. Do I know what the blazes I'm rabbiting on about? No.

I'll watch and learn from the sidelines!
This so does not surprise me. Of course, it means that when the rest of us are nearing a state of total exhaustion, Lisa will be able to jump in, fresh as a daisy, and liven things up again.

Lauren writes
He told my best friend that he bought me a gold necklace thingie that said Anthony & Lauren, 7-22-98 & a heart that said I Love You, & he was going to give it to me for my birthday. He said it was $410.
Guilt trip, and almost certainly based on a fib. Heck, that's (reaches for calculator) a lot of money. Some of us don't spend that much on wedding rings...

[He said] I was his life & all this other stuff, then he accused me of wanting to be with someone else, then he said that he thought I was scared of being in a relationship.
Permit me to retro-project all this. He's scared of being in a close relationship, and he wants to float around other people before getting any more serious.

He said that he couldn't wait for me
And you can't wait for him, no doubt.

he just won't understand me
Does he deliberately not understand, or is he incapable of doing so?

just b/c he is hurting & upset that we should get back together.
Not the best of reasons...

I wish that we could be friends,
Aack! No, no, no, no, NO! "Being friends" just strings him along for no purpose. Make your position plain, and live in it. If you're dating him, do that. If you're not, then don't go out of your way to spend time with him. Of course you'll see him socially, and I'd expect you both to be polite, but there's no need to do anything more.

There's always a certain buzz about what's happening on lists one doesn't usually see. From Congress, the home of laws trying to ban sex on the Internet comes 445 pages of (er) sex on the Internet. And Channel Five are pre-empting their usual late night fare tonight to show the Bill's Mouth tape in full. And also
I know that I can keep emotions separate from sex
That's the Synchronicity Moment.

Shana (Sun)
welp, I would really like to, but I'd prolly get in trouble.
Well, we could sit on the sidelines with Ms Bing and make acidic comments about the prowess (or otherwise) of the participants. Just remember to wear something that repels Kris' flying whips...

And with that image still fresh in your minds, I'm out of here. Catch you all later...

Brum: cloudy & 18 * keeper Brian's calendar * Dipsy of a #1 place

kenickie.com

And now a quick word about HTML mail. Don't. It looks cack.

The Wixzard of Salliwoo
does some Kenicke minded listie know when the new album is out? Coz I intend on buying it...
August 31. As in, like, two weeks ago. It crashed into the albums listings with an anvil at #32. The phrases "record company", "dropped by" and "about to be" spring to mind, for some reason.

I'm not sure I'd file Korn under rebellious youth. More under a socially acceptable veneer of rebellion that won't actually change anything. More of a band to let off the frustrations of the teen years. See also Guns & Roses, Def Leppard, the Rolling Stones...

It leads Sara to enquire
what exactly would you have to do/not do, to be rebelliuos?
It very much depends on what you're rebelling against. If you're rebelling against the Capitalist Economy, then go live in a field, grow your own food, make your own work and never leave the field. If you're rebelling against the Moral Decline, then espouse and promote values that you hold dear, such as [insert rules that you keep and others don't]. If you're rebelling against the Dumbing Down Of Society, then getting straight As is a rebellion in its own right.

Lixz
I don't really think my *moral* system is short on responsibility but that's not really what I've been talking about...I've been talking more about the legal system I would enact, which is shorter on obligations and regulations, it's true.
Gotcha. Now, what are you going to do to change that? Remember: no change is always an option [/johnmajor]

Sara
orgies aren't illegal, are they? I mean..obviously, in public they would be ;-), but in the privacy of your own home? they couldn't possibly be...could they?
Oddly enough, it depends. Even in England, it depends. If it's purely a straight orgy, you're in the clear. If there are lesbian pairings (or more), you're still fine. If there's one gay couple, still OK. But have three gay men at the same time, and bang! you're breaking the law. The worst part is that the police do still prefer charges under this statute.

Sara pretty much sums up the logical flaws in one of the arguments we've been hearing.
when something exists, it doesn't depend on having something opposite there for it to exist.
If it did, then somewhere there would be an anti-me, that undid everything I did. Now, in more paranoid moments, I suspect that such a person is around, but realistically there's nothing like that. So, as there's no anti-me, there can (by Flix's logic) be no me, and so I can't be writing this post. But as you're reading it, and you're a rational, sane person, then this post does exist, so do I, and Flix's proposition is inaccurate.

For my next trick, I'll prove that black is white...

The Commonwealth Games are open only to fully paid-up members of the British Commonwealth. The organisation has recently expanded to include the former Portugese colony of Mozambique; why the USA still choose not to join is a mystery to me...

Flix ponders the truth behind the statement
us americans think we are better then everyone, we're cocky...we think NO ONE CAN STOP US DAMMIT WE'RE AMERICA!
So, my fine friend, how many medals have you won at the Commonwealth Games this year? And, indeed, where are you on the all-time medal table? Hint: 0-0-0 and nowhere.

Inter alia, the Wixzard asks
3)What is the cutest sounding word in the world?
Cushion.

4)Do you think Danielle ever will get noticed?
Yes. When Angela moves out.

9)Has this list touched your heart? How?
Yes. Meeting the womin I'm married to.

10)Are you going to Decas Orgy?
This could be arranged...

weaver.radio

Francis Park speaks of a
Geocities homepage site (which is now a RealAudio indie music show site).
Don't forget, folks, other realaudio music sites are also available. All of them, without any exception, are better than mine. Though none of the others features the new Alisha's Attic single. Go fig.

Britt
what is the deal with all the radio stations playing such crap on Saturday nights? They play all this techno and dance stuff, it's so annoying. If I wanted to hear it, I would go to a club.
That leaves a huge gap in the market for Other Stations. I'm in the official area of six stations. The BBC's national plays dance sh*te from mid-afternoon. The locals go dancy between 6 and 8. But one has a mix of music and chat with entertainment people, like Natalie Imbroglio and Robbie Williams. Of course, they all go to sloppy love songs after 11, but that's another rant.

Angela finds this word funny
Uranus
What is so funny about that? Patrick Moore's been talking about rings around YOU-rannus for the past 20 years, and he's never raised so much as a titter. But titter, now that's a funny word.

Kent raises my hackles sky-high
Finally, let me quote the ever indispensible Beatles:
For one thing, the Beatles are totally disposable. Their only contribution to my world is a yardstick of a total lack of quality. Just look at all the imitators....

And in the end the love you take
Is equal to the love you make
Another piece of unmitigated tosh from the pen of John Lennin. Of course it's not going to be equal. Nothing ever is. Some people will get a neat balance, some will be net receivers, and some net contributors.

un-bear-able..?

Didn't know that Der was a bear, btw.
I suspect the truth is more along the lines of him being an un-bear.

Pause three seconds, and think about the pun.

Is there a substantial Jewish community in England?
Larger than you may think. Just to put it in context, if there were no English Jewry, then there would be just one word on the sound archive in London last month; Nic saying his name.

Sara
See, every pot smoker that I've ever known, has been WAY smarter than everyone else.
I'm tempted to take this very personally, with Sara casting aspertions on my smartness...

Judy V
Like events such as the Olympic, tennis Tournaments, I always go for Americans and other countries coz you are the best in the world.
Bringing up the list of the Top 20 Men, I notice there are exactly two Americans (Sampras #1, Agassi #8). That makes them no more successful than Australia (Rafter #2, Phillippossis #14), Sweden (Bjorkman #13, Enqvist #19) or Britain (Henman #11, Rusedski #15). Spain are twice as successful as all of these, with Moya #5, Corretja #7, Berasategui #16 and Costa #17.

In summary, no, the Americans aren't the best in the world.

I always wish that, in the Olympics you would be in the top gold winners and I always pray that Pete Sampras or Davenport or Andre to win all tournaments. Does that make any since at all???
Nope. I for one would be worried if Lindsay Davenport started beating any of the players mentioned above (: And what about the men's doubles at the last Olympics? Australia beats Britain, IIRC.

Pat belongs in the no. 1 rank. Dream on Newcombe. Pete will still no.1 in the world. If he belong there why isn't he then?
Because of the strange and bizarre way these rankings are put together. If you go on this year's results only, Rafter is now #1, taking that ranking from Chile's Rios (#3 on the official list).

May
You remind me of some of the sweet people on my Rutger Hauer mailing list. Hmmm...most of you prolly don't even know who he is. Well, he played the bad guy (Roy Batty) in Bladerunner.
Well, that's as maybe, but I'll always remember him for those totally bonkers adverts for an Irish beer.

From the UEFA Cup Phile: Brann Bergen 2-2 Werder Bremen, Red Star Belgrade 2-1 Metz, Dinamo Moscow 2-2 Skonto Riga. B@~# that!

Brum: windy & 16 * keeper Brian's calendar * icq 14441391

lilith fair
weaver.radio
commonwealth cricket

Featured on my web site is another new programme of weaver.radio, more words on the Lilith Fair and coverage of the Commonwealth Games cricket. And a new look for the only archive of my list posts.

~Laura complains
Hey!!! You never send me dirty jokes!!!
What do you call a man who never does his laundry? Pete.

Sara, I'm glad that you're singularly useless at killing yourself. [hugs]

Andrea
My cable is finally fixed!!! Just in time for me to see McGwire's homer!!!
Ah, good old WTN pre-emptions, eh. Taking out the blighters from F*x tv. Now, can Carlton do the same with their bids for Arsenal and/or Villa?

So this gives Sony Newcastle United, Carlton Central Villa, Carlton London Arsenal, BSkyManU, and Microsoft Southampton.

Becky
Mike Oldfield
Tubular Bells III: a push too far?

Ryan
When I first started watching the show, I thought Cordy was the most likely to become a vampire, even though it WOULD NEVER HAPPEN!
Now, thanks to the complete incapacity of UK television to buy this work of art, I've not seen a single episode of the show. But it's clear to me that the dramatic balance of the show, given WB's plans for a spin-off series, would be best served by turning Cordelia.

Angel's curse is not scratch and sniff. It doesn't rub off on whatever vamp he makes.
Has it actually been established that Angel's curse cannot propagate in this manner? Coz if it hasn't explicitly been ruled out, then you have to consider it as a possible outcome. And would it be possible for his hand to be forced in some way? Elementary, my dear Ryan. [/obsherlock]

This is all facinating, but idle specualtion into a theory that is un-based on anything factual. It's speculation ON speculation.
I seem to recall Democrats spinning a similar line in February...

Cursed when sucked into hell meanse cursed when sucked out.
Again, has this been established as a given in the show's reality? And would it not be possible to break the curse at the time of exit either way?

Nichole
You mean over there the numbers the players have actually correspond with how many players there are on the team! but.. that's so... logical!
Oh yes, very much so. Footballers originally lined up Goalie: 1 Defence: 2-3-4-5-6 Midfield: 7-8-11 Forwards 9-10. These days a 4-4-2 formation is more normal, so 2-3-5-6 play defence, and 4 joins the midfield. Unless, of course, you're defensive minded Ipswich, where the defence is numbers 1 through 11 inclusive. Subs are 12, 14 and 15.

It's even easier in cricket, where the players are numbered by their order in the batting.

~Laura on the orgy
Actually, no sport socks either!
Let's get this straight. No socks at all. There's something so -- mm -- tempting about guys walking round barefoot in long trousers. Ideas why I might think that to the usual address, please.

daily telegraph

That Aerosmith song. Look, it's a hard-edged ballad. And no-one does it better than Tyler and co. Remember "Crying". Remember "Crazy". Remember the video to "Crazy"...

Variety on radio. It's a good idea. Many British stations are going through that tightly formatted error of playing 25 songs to death at a time, and ignoring some far better tunes. Shame, especially, on BBC Radio 1, and not just for relegating Greening to Sundays. It's little stations, like the Wolf, Sunshine, and Maldwyn, that actually use their libraries extensively, that get my ear time.

kansascity.com

Codsall: wet & 16 * autumn falls... * keeper of brian's calendar

twist my arm and I'll mumble Jesse at you, and deny it later.

Coming later: love, marriage, bush, rights, clinton, Joan of Arc, dwarves and footy.

One thing I didn't comment on in my last post was Toronto's victory over Cleveland by the score of 15 to 1. Cue thoughts of William G. Stewart pitching really easy questions to the Cleveland lineup, and seeing them all eliminated by the end of the first round...

And what did I start a week and a half ago? Yesterday, Microsoft announced its online real estate service will reserve a plot on GeoCities' Web site. According to the pact, HomeAdvisor will be the exclusive provider of real estate listings for GeoCities' new Real Estate Center. Links to the HomeAdvisor site will also be included. Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Lauren raises the old spectre
Trent is pretty luscious in that lanky musician way
Naaaaah. Trent is, like, Jane's sister. That's just, like, waa-a-a-ay too obvious. Twist my arm and I'll mumble Jesse at you, and deny it later.

Flix on the Saross
u WANTED to fall in love.....so u did. if you hadn't wanted and been looking for someone to spend your life with then it wouldn't have happened...very simple...same goes for him....
There is, one has to admit, a certain rationale behind this logic. However, it doesn't fit at all snugly with any known fact.

u could have chosen to stop seeing each other after date 1 had u not wanted to be in love.
At a time when date 1 lasted the best part of a week? Now, I may have had the option of waving a goldfish at a hotel. IIRC, Sara didn't have that luxury.

love over the internet is even stupider then the real life stuff
Now, this suggests that internet love is, somehow, not real life stuff. Do please remember that this list alone has formed half a dozen couples during its brief existence. That's a better strike rate than many dating agencies.

Lauren again
from Razorblade, it would have to be Swallowed.
Ah, Bush's one big UK hit single. When it came out, the video reminded me a lot of the (then forthcoming) "Romeo + Juliet" movie. Must be something to do with all the cross imagery.

what's your favorite Claire movie?
"Romeo + Juliet". Though I wouldn't mind seeing "Little Women". It should be on the telly soon(ish).

Lixz debates
whether marriage is a right or a privilege
It's a privilege. Dependent on finding an acceptable life partner. Dependent on getting their consent. Dependent on a whole slew of other matters. And English law grants privelieges, not gives rights.

Indeed, Lixz appears to be long on rights, short on responsibilities. What about the responsibility not to psychologically damage other people? Maybe you can't stop people from being offended, but you can stop actions that you know are hurting other people.

Sunshine Shana
opppps, you sleep with that person! uh-oh, you cheated!!! now, can you say that it is that persons fault?
Yes, I can. At least one person (maybe both) have taken vows of fidelity. No-one but them has taken the conscious decision to break them.

that they KNEW they were going to cheat when they married their SO?
That is a whole other kettle of fish. As I see it, Lixz's point was about couples who knew from the start that they wouldn't be faithful. Not such lapses as this.

The monthly appeal to all UK terrestrial channels: Someone, please own up to buying Buffy. Otherwise I'll just have to go out and get a SKY digital wok, not a DTTV box. Oh, and keep DOGs for coverage of Woofts. Ta.

Alan Bigos points out
all you nostalgia lovers might want to check out a little movie called The Spirit of '76. It basically makes fun of the '70s crazes.
Now, I wonder. Was this movie based on the Alarm's 1987 single of that name, or was it the other way round. For those that don't know, the Alarm were a Welsh band, popular around 10 years ago for their pompous rock tunes. Kinda like the Manic Street Preachers of their day.

Kris
No matter how hard you try, you can't baptize cats
The Reverend Tabatha Mogg writes: Rubbish. I do it all the time. As does a vicar in Dudley.

cause I can say that I have stopped myself from falling in love twice.
You say you stopped yourself. Was it stopping, or denial and repression of the emotion? And is there a difference?

radio 10 gold

actually it may not even need a hook as big as that one, it is a tiny place.. (actually I dunno how big/small it is in relation to England, but oh well)
About 1/6 the size of Great Britain, but you'll need a lot of force to extract it from the continent in the first place. So, I think using the same hook would be a good idea.

Sara
Ross says that what its lacking in size, it has in power!
Yes, indeed. Of course, the whole of Europe uses double the voltage that the USA does. 230 compared with your 110.

express and star
evening standard
daily telegraph
the times

The Wixzard of Salliwoo
We went bowling with my other best friend Clare. It was fun, but I came last!
Always happens to me. Last time, though, I managed to get a strike, which completely threw me. Then normal service was resumed, with two balls heading into the gutter.

Lauren
I have to get 15 facts on Joan of Arc's life by Thursday.
Ack, well, assuming things were rained off today (or you're reading this before class) eight lines from Encyclomedia...

• Maid of Orleans
• Patron saint of France
• 1412-1431
• Turned Hundred Years War to France
• Saw visions of St Michael and St Catherine
• Helped Dauphan (later Charles 7)
• Carried white banner into battle
• Given place of honour by Charles 7
• 1430 army strike without royal assent
• Captured by Burgandy soldiers
• Sold to English
• Interrogated for 14 months
• Heresy charge: responsible to God, not RC church
• Burned for wearing masculine clothes
• Found innocent by RC trial 1456
• Canonized 1920

Now back to your regularly scheduled Alisha's Attic.

Deca
The one before the one where Jon Secada sang the US anthem (first one still able to name more than one song of him receives a pat on the back).
"Just Another Day" and "Do You Believe in Us".

If they had played against the UK there wouldn't have been any problem with their flag upside down
Well, actually, the Union Flag upside down is a distress sign. I gather it was that way up in Sweden last weekend (;

My choice for a "classic 80's song of the day": Tears For Fears - "Pale Shelter" + "Mad World".
Mmm, Starship "We Built this City". It's amazing what one can do with the humble sausage roll.

"shouting lager lager lager lager"
Mega mega white thing, mega mega white thing

weaver radio

~Laura
what is the last thing everyone really laughed at?
Dan and Nick on "The Wildebeast Years". With Barry White and An Indeterminate Number of Dwarves. Grumpy, who wakes up feeling happy. Sleepy, Sleazy, Sneezy, Dopey, Trotsky, Downhillsky, McCartney, Funny, BT, Catastrophy, Scully, Scotty, Motty. Coupled with a phrase from all of them... Final episode on radio 4 at 6:30 next Wednesday.

What was the last thing that happened to you that gave you prickles?
Odd as it may sound, it was reading the text descriptions of McGwire's 62nd. Just, like, wow! Watching the clip was (almost) a let-down afterwards.

Denise
Is Bmg like a mail order company or a retail store.
BMG is the Bertelsmann (sp?) Music Group. They release records by acts including Take That and (er) others, and have signed to release videos of MSCL this autumn.

Kent, so wonderful they named a county after him
I don't recognize Dave Gahan,
Lead vocalist with Depeche Mode.
Shirlee Manson
aka Shirley Manson. Co-vocalist in Edinburgh rock band Goodbye Mr Mackenzie, but left them for some trashy other outfit.
Bret Anderson
aka Brett Anderson. Effeminate bisexual who has never had a gay experience, according to an infamous 1992 interview. Doesn't trade on that much any more.

Betsy's match report
My baby Alberto scored the first goal on a PK. THe goalie on the other team knocked him over in the air.
I trust the opposing goalie was red-carded for that foul challenge.

Things were looking good until 5 minutes left, and #21 scored again
Hang on, they had 21 players on the pitch? I know you play by some odd rules in the US, but I recall football as being strictly 11-a- side.

2-2aet? That's, like, a draw. Live with it. But do remember that goalies are allowed to move left and right along their lines at penalties. One of FIFA's newer diktats.

As opposed to Thou Shalt Sell Thy Soul For A Billion Dollars. If you're MUN, that is.

Brum: showers & 18 * keeper of Brian's dodgy calendar

it's a reference to the beautiful south's song from their 1996 album "blue is the colour".

Right. Be warned. Most of this post is on the old marriage topic. If you want to ignore that, your cue is here.

Goodness! Wendy! Talk about a blast from the past. And Kent! Hello again! And Moxie! Welcome aboard, don't be fruvious. [/obnf]

shim
8, 15, 23, 31, 44. those would be the numbers i would use if i ever bought a lotto ticket.
It's a shame you didn't. Those five alone would have matched three on July 15 in the UK. Add 35 and you match 4 (71 quid), and get a match three on Aug 15. Since the UK lottery started, you would have won 8 times, for a total win of 141 pounds. On a spend of 282 pounds, natch.

uk lottery site

Bronwyn
they don't have the elusive "it" factor that sara (and apparently iain) seem to think comes with deciding to get married.
Au contraire, mon amie. I'm simply suggesting that the presence of the "it" factor is a necessary condition for marriage. If a couple have "it" but decide - for whatever reason - not to have a civic or religious ceremony, that's their choice, and I'll respect that. I trust that they would respect my choice to still treat them as a "married" couple on a social level, just as if they had gone through with such a ceremony. Like, invite them both to a function if I were inviting the married Mr and Mrs Whoever.

Shobi
Iain suggested (& rightly I think) that I'm too biased to "decide" whether or not my relationship with Shannon has "harmed" society. Explain the harm to me then, Iain.
I'm not going to. My point was simply that the protagonists are in the worst possible position to make a fair comment on such a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Furthermore, we're still too close to the events in question to make any reasonable judgement. Come back in seven, ten years and look at the situation then, with the preferred metric of harm to society as a whole, not just the summation of individual's gains and losses.

the only way to understand "it" (being true love, marriage, or commitment, I think) is to be experience "it". And those of us who question "it" or choose not to partake of "it" in the way Sara & Iain decide is meaningful *just don't understand*.
Sheesh. Here's what I wrote on Friday:

It is the most inexplicable and strange of emotions. You know if you've had it. If you've not, you don't; and can't really take a decent shot at what it's like.

The best I can come up with is a sense of completeness. Your life is suddenly more complete with this person around, and becomes less complete when they're not around. Mundane tasks become a little bit brighter. The highs become higher. There's a certain vibrancy to life. And some part of this feeling lasts beyond a few months. That's the best description I have for "it".

Sara
if you've never seen a ghost, you might not believe in them. and yet, I *know* that they are there, because I've already seen them.
A ghost writes: You know, I never used to believe in Americans. I'd never seen any of them. And all the reports in the "Ghouls of the World" - I get it for the vampires on page three - were just fictions made up by struggling copy editors. Then I met Chuck...

When you have an opinion, it doesn't just stay constant, no matter what the factors are. It changes as the factors change.
More importantly, one's opinion is formed by these other factors. Change the circumstances, and the opinion may well change as well.

Okay..this is our problem. You associate marriage with a piece of paper,and a financial entanglement. I associate marriage with the feelings of being in love with oen person, and wnating to be with that person forever. Obviously, considering our two very different explanations, we are going to have problems on agreeing with things.
And amen to that. I can't separate the emotional side of marriage from the legal and financial sides. It appears other correspondents can.

Theres a difference between getting married, and then realzing that you are not emotionally ready, and getting married with an intent to cheat on the other person.
They're both foolish and unfair on the other side. One of them (only) is culpable.

Shobi
I presumed that there would be some place that would still do a non-civic marriage even for me, the professed atheist.
Fine in theory, but I think such a place would only cater for the big-budget weddings of people prepared to splash out on a grand feast (held on the premises, natch). There would be nowhere for people who just want a small, quiet no-frills wedding. Like our Rossara.

the economic perks that come with marriage punish those that choose not to get married & especially punish those that are not allowed to get married.
Ah, I think we've come across the bottom line of our misunderstanding here. At the government level, the British government barely encourages marriage: indeed, in many ways, it appears to actively discourage it. Single parents will get a higher priority for housing than couples with children. The tax take from married couples has increased faster than for single people. Yes, there is discrimination against gay couples by a few life insurance, but that's being addressed by those same free market forces that Shobi appears so set against.

different tax credits given to married people that singles don't get, such as a mortgage credit.
This is not a British phenomenon. In fact, a house price boom in 1988 was exacerbated by Chancellor Lawson's abolition of a tax break applicable to unmarried couples. Before, each person buying a house was entitled to tax relief on 30,000 pound's worth of mortgage interest - except married couples, who were treated as one person for this. Afterwards, the 30,000 limit was applied to each property.

without a compensatory across-the-board cut in the rates, the total tax take goes up.

Why would you have to raise taxes?
You abolish a certain tax credit. That increases taxes for the people who used to take the credit, obviously. Without a compensatory across-the-board cut in the rates - which the system will probably not be in a position to implement - the total tax take goes up.

The prevalence of prenuptial agreements means that even with the premade contract you're so fond of, anyone with any assets (or to my view, any brains) whatsoever already spends quite a bit of time with their lawyer before marriage
As I've mentioned before in this thread, English courts do not recognise or even take into account pre-nuptual agreements of this or any other kind. Furthermore, you admit that lawyers make a tidy little packet out of this arrangement. Why should we encourage them in this way?

Lixz, quoting me

Only people who were *conventionally* religious could marry. That eliminates Sara from the reckoning - she's a proclaimed agnostic

You would stop the regulation of something the government has no business regulating.
Don't forget that the government is acting as society writ large. And if society at large decides that something should be regulated, then there has to be an excellent case argued against it. This is not such an excellent case.

You would set a precedent that private relationships are private relationships
If two people are seen, socially, as a couple, they are in a public relationship.

and that no structure of romantic relationship is best.
See rebuttal to point 1.

if you don't like the contract, you don't have to sign.

And Lixz enumerates the advantages. Let me apply them to a Brit.
There are tax benefits
175 pounds maximum; less if you're earning below about 12K.

mortgages -- if you have one, you save a lot
0p. Nothing. Nadda. Not a penny.

there are insurance benefits,
Insurance is always a private contract, free from government interference (apart from insurance premium tax, which is levied on the premiums paid).

there are inheritance benefits
Transfers between spouses are free of IT. Only makes a saving for estates of over half a million.

and there are citizenship benefits.
Which are only of interest for people who think that citizenship of a country is of any value whatsoever.

Lixz again
I know people in non-monogamous relationships that I absolutely would consider to be in love...and they consider themselves that way too. I don't understand telling them that their feelings of being in love and their definition are invalid
That boils down to a matter of personal morality. If an honest answer is demanded, I would suggest that such combinations are not my definition of love. But, as they believe otherwise, I will not inform them unless they ask (in which case, they really should be prepared.)

and *so* invalid that you will make it a crime for them to remain in their relationship while acting on their feelings of love in the same way that you do.
As I mentioned, my personal morality mitigates against this. But I wouldn't want to base a law on my morals alone. Otherwise St Shula would be in jail right now... Hmmmmm....... (;

In summary, it appears that Shobi's argument is primarily against the US government's tax breaks given only to "conventionally" married couples. So, why not start by arguing against said tax breaks? It's worked well in the UK.

Lixz's case also touches on the concept of all relationships being equal before the law, which I can't disagree with.

It's interesting to note that both Shobi and Liz raise the spectre of cultural relativism in their defence, suggesting that cultures different from their own have an equal validity. This, I conjecture, is the essential nub of the argument. Should the culture of the majority be imposed on the minority that disagrees? If not, then what is the point of having that weak culture in the first place? This form of debate would be treated as heresy in many Islamic countries, to cite the most obvious example.

Onwards and upwards. Bron
iain to my knowledge you live in england.
This Is True.
were you born in canada? how are you canadian?
By marriage. And by self-definition.

Mark Frost
>
Possibly the most cogent comment I've read in a long time (:

Sara
I don't think you can get your license in another state if they've taken it away in another state, can you?
Never mind those 50 little insular territories betwixt the Great North and the Tropics, think about trading in your US license for a GB one, and then trading it back.

not to mention, if you are married, and go to church, you have to pay double the amount of a single person, plus 15%. at least, at the church that I used to go to, thats how it was.
Would some kind biblical scholar care to find the reference to usuary in the Top 5, and send it to that self-proclaimed church? Thank you.

Believe me, me and my mother have looked *everywhere* for someone that would marry us where we want to be married.
You have one massive advantage. You don't need to go through the legal formalities. So you could just grab a passing person off the street and get them to officiate. Or interpret Baby's gurgles as the officiation. Or.... [ctd p 94]

[if you carry on at this rate there will be a p 94 - Ed]

We Want Wrigley Field Wallpaper

Lixz
Although I am. Cute. Quite.
Stop beating around the bush. Lixz is cuter than Dot Warner.

Kent
We must be living in decadent times if our sigs are now longer than the posts they follow!
This is not a decadent post. Sorry, folks. You'll just have to wait till the mail from Bremen arrives.

shim
kc chiefs football
Shame. The Oakland 28-8s doesn't quite have the same ring as the San Fran 44-9'ers. Yes, I'm still on about that. Nine months later it's the same old record...

josie from reruns of whose line is it anyway? (what's her last name?)...
Josie Lawrence. You know, the Shakesperian actor who's really come down lately, working with weaver.sister.

leonardo dilaine (thank you iain!)
Shucks. Actually, thank Kris for it. Her idea, not mine. And they can stay the Raiders, sweetie.

And finally. Ceefax news (not sport) has a report on McGwire's 61st homer. Wonders will never cease.

See you in a few days.

Brum: showers & 20 * fingers are now dropping off

Who Wants to Be Speaking To The World.

Basil Fawlty, from Torquay.
Eli Meirom, from Haifa.
Sara MacDonald, from Appleton, Wisconsin.
Lisa Bing, from Chiswick.
Henry Kelly, from Limerick.
Andrej and Nicola Lipkin, from Croydon.

We're going to ask all of you a question; the first three to get it right will be able to speak to the world. Tonight's question is: where does Queen Elizabeth live in London? Call 1-800-IHEARYU.

While we're waiting for the lines to explode into action, here's some comments on other matters. Angela
Canadians are wonderful!
Thank you. [blushes slightly]

Why do I live here? My Officer Ball is a po-leece-man and by contract they must live in the city.
And now we know why. If the police don't have confidence in their city, who else will?

Well, I was tempting Sod's law by saying I'd not seen the Music Week with the Titanic fold-out. It's this week's, and the video will appear on October 25. Anyone buying it for my birthday will be asked for a receipt.

Denise
When entering a public restroom, which stall are you more likely to enter?
The unoccupied one. Or, failing that, the one further from the door. Or the urinal that will leave a free space on one or other side of me.

Only people who were conventionally religious could marry. The only couple I know who would still be entitled to publicly state their commitment would be Nicola and Andrej.

Shobi
As logical fallacies go, IIRC, Sara is committing the fallacy of argumentum ad numerum -- basically saying that the more people that agree with a proposition, the more likely the proposition is to be correct.
This is a flaw in the logical argument. However, marriage is not just a logical construct. There are emotions and social factors involved.

She may be asserting that even if not correct, what the majority wants should prevail.
Let's spin it round. What positive good would come from removing a privilege from a section of the population? As I see it, most of the damage from marriage comes from the end of the relationship, and that would occur were it legally sanctioned or not. There's no obvious reason to tamper with the structure.

I like to believe that our ancestors left Europe because they didn't want *any* minority to be oppressed, *not* because they just wanted their beliefs to be the new majority rule enforced in a new land.
I really don't think that this optimistic view is bourne out by the facts. The members of the "Mayflower" were primarily fleeing from religious persecution, not striving for a "perfect" place.

More importantly, abolishing civic marriage would place the economic burden of achieving the financial trappings of marriage on those *wanting* to be married
Call me confused, but what are these financial trappings? As I see it, there are two tax breaks available only to the married: a small increase in the amount of tax-free pay available to the couple, and an absolute freedom from inheritance taxes on the death of one spouse. The latter is only relevant to those who have estates large enough to qualify for inheritance tax, and most of those will have planned around to avoid it; the former only makes a significant difference for those on relatively meagre earnings to start with.

the financial costs of marriage are paid for by all of society, including those who don't want to or aren't allowed to partake in the perks the marriage incentive provides.
So, you do away with these exemptions, and just put everyone's taxes up further? Is that the way you want to ru(i)n the world?

You want to tear up a framework document that is clear for everyone, and substitute for it a myriad of individual, variable private contracts.

Lixz claims
Because even though YOU don't think so, lots of people feel it is possible to be completely emotionally committed and in love without being sexually monogamous.
Name them. I'll take your word for it.

Hmm. I seem to be in agreement with Sara on much of this. I'll enjoy it while it lasts. (:

Denise again
I MIGHT BE GOING TO HOOK ENGLAND SOMETIME IN THE BEGINING OF NEXT YEAR
Ah, very interesting. If you're going to hook us, where will you be reeling us into?

And now for the educational section. Geography and physics follow, but first, logical deduction.
WHAT CAUSS VRYON TO SUSPCT AN AX MURDRR?
Three things. They only talk in capitals. They talk in staccatto sentences. And they don't use the letter "e". Especially in the word "axe".

Angela
It is technically possible that Beirut may be a safer place to live than either Detroit or New Orleans.
You may wish to delete the words "technically possible", and replace them with "a fact". Beiruit is no longer a troubled city; the civil war is long over, and the level of violence is no higher than the average for that part of the world.

Candy enquires
does glitter glow in the dark????
Lixz was 90% of the way towards the correct answer. Good work.

Glitter only appears to glow by reflecting light at unusual angles. If it's totally dark, then the glitter has no light to bounce off its very uneven surface, and so it won't shine. But if there's a little light in the room, then the glitter will catch it and spread it in all directions. Now, glitter doesn't reflect all the light it gets - some of it is turned into heat, and some of it is reflected away from your eye. So you see a dim glow from the glitter, and you can see it from any angle, thanks to the scattering effect I mentioned earlier.

However, the glow will be very faint, and you'll need excellent conditions to observe it. Unless, of course, the glitter is in compound with a light absorbing substance, such as the stuff they make glow-in-the-dark stars from.

Now back to the issues of the day. Sara
how can we all have some kind of moral code, if our morals are so different?
Someone, somewhere, has to impose their morals on someone else. It's a corollary of each human being unique.

"Right, stuff that, we're not having a party after all."

I also want as few people there as possible (not counting my friends), but my mom just keeps inviting people and inviting people!! she wanted to invited all of her aunts and uncles. WEll, I don't even *know* those aunts and uncles, why on earth would I want them there on me and Ross's ceremony day?
You hold the ultimate trump card here. If matters don't go the way you want them to, you can just say "Right, stuff that, we're not having a party after all." And be done with it.

but my mother seems to think that this wedding is about her. or that the ceremony is.
Nooooooooo. No, no, no, no, no. [/obteletubbies]

uh..who is Rachel Green?
Rachel-off-of-Friends. You know, the character played by Jennifer Anistasia.

I can't get my license either
Baldrick's Cunning Plan: given that you've passed a Wisconsin test, you shouldn't have too much difficulty passing a test in another state. Or country... like, here? Or is the WI legal system even more preposterous than I suspect?

others might look up to them, and then think that cheating is okay to do. Which it definitely isn't. does that make more sense?
Certainly it does. Though it does show which side of the fence you're coming down on.

Denise
DO YOU THINK I NEED A SHRINK
No, just to find the Caps Lock key. And turn it off so you're not continually typing in capitals.

London Live On Tape

Well, we now have all the contestents needed to make our show. Go to the link in the sig to hear what happens.

the Last But One Weaver Post Before The First Labour Day Weekend

Back to reasons to marry. Lixz reminds me
For some people it's a lot less in income taxes (for my parents, I think it would be more--added incentive not to marry!).
And the reason why joint taxation of married couples ended in the UK at the beginning of the decade. There's a personal allowance of around 4,000 each, plus a married couples' allowance of around 2,000, that the couple can split in whatever way they find most efficient. Before, the incomes would be pooled, and the pair would be treated as one person. The government is taking about 3% more as a result.
You also can be in love with more than one person
Ah. Lixz is the Shula Archer of the list. [/obarchers, oddly]
I think that you shouldn't be allowed to get married for purely financial reasons.
We're back to the Primary Purpose Rule. Who will judge it?

Sara adds
I can't really explain it..because I can't form it into words even in my own head. Its a feeling.
It is the most inexplicable and strange of emotions. You know if you've had it. If you've not, you don't; and can't really take a decent shot at what it's like. Trust me...
when you have a marriage, and a wedding ceremony, what is that day *supposed* to be about? first off, it is for yourselves...the reason that people are invited, is so that they can join in on your happy day..so that they can witness it as well.
Though if you don't want anyone to witness the moment when you two acknowledge your perpetual togetherness, that doesn't make it any less valid. It counts to the two people who decide it, and there's nothing anyone can do to say that ain't so.
Actually, to be honest, I just don't understand cheating at all.
Oh, I'm sure there are people around who can fill you in on the gaps.

Apropos of nothing, Sara wrote
the state shouldn't get involved unless something drastic has happened *Sara screams* (ow!!!!!! the baby just kicked me in the ribs
Something drastic like that? (;
some people make their bed EVERY morning..but what are you going to do that night anwyay?
Please remember that this is meant to be a list we can show to any passing kid. Even yours...
A short break...yes. Do you need to cheat on your spouse during that short break? NO!!!
Oh look, it's the Rachel Green of the list.
I STILL can't believe that he slept with someone else. ugh, ugh... what a loser.
Ah, but roughly how much action has he had since? That bald-headed womin might have been, and the one he was babysitting for, but that's all.

[ObC4: they're only up to the end of November Thanksgiving episode.]

andi's site

Incidentally, anyone know what's happened to the Listie Picture Site? It's, like, been taken over by something else. Wretched "service" "provider".

~Laura
Angela. What is her best quality?
That she doesn't know who she is.
What is her worst quality?
That she doesn't know who she is.
What part of her to you see yourself in?
That she doesn't know who she is.
What is your favorite Angela moment?
That she (er). Reacting to Danielle's tale after Hallowe'en.
Are you an Angela?
Probably.
Who do you think is most like Angela on this list?
Decline to answer. There cannot be an Angela of the list. In the sense of the character, natch.
If you went to school with Angela Chase would you date her/be her friend/avoid her/admire her/not know her?
Friendly but not intimate.
What one word sums up Angela to you?
Antidisestablishmentarianism.
Do you listen to music while posting to the list?
More often than not. Sometimes from the radio, sometimes from the .ra archive on my hard disk.
Utter and complete silence?
Not usually.
What is in the background as you answer these questions right now?
Since I started this section I've finished the midday news from the CBC, had a number of montages of kids tv themes, and now onto "The Journey", the piece they used to play on C4 Schools... After that, I'll be sticking on my import copy of "Faith" (Faith Evans, not George Michael.)

Kris writes of
All night I had to listen to the Titanic Trailer
You guys were open two hours, right? That's "Titanic" OST, "Titanic: The Return" OST, and that Celine song if there were still people around at 1:30. Stick them on at head office, satellite them up to all the remote stores, and bingo! And you don't see the same b********y clip every five minutes. Oh, sorry, sorry, too sensible.
could you give me the info on how to get on digest form
From the address you're subscribed, write so-called-switch@mail-list .com (OK, bring that all onto the one line:)
You picken on my Raiders? I have a good feeling this year, I really do! and if they make it to the Superbowl, you have to come to Sacramento and watch it with me
I'll keep a bag by the door. Does that offer extend to other potential Superbowl cities, or just Green Bay-in-Essex?

Music Week

Ouch. Apologies for the unintentional pun in the previous sentence.

Michael and Sara
La donna e mobile. :)
> huh?
Woman is inconstant. (It's from a song or something..)
In the same way that Mozart wrote a catchy tune or two :) Actually, it's from Verdi's 1853 opera "La Traviata", the one that really secured his place as a unifier of traditional (staid) Italian opera and fast-paced drama. But he's perhaps best remembered for writing a tune that just totally fits the rhythm of the Right Said Fred classic, "I'm Too Sexy".
ah...so how do you say,' man is inconstant' then? :)
Il hommo e mobile, not surprisingly.

~Laura again
Denise, your posts come to me as an attachment that my computer can not open and I would like to include your answers.
Hmm. Just a shot in the dark, but is Denise using Microsoft Outlook or Outlook Express? If so, go to your address book, choose the properties of "so-called@mail-list.com" and make sure you're not sending us mail in Microsoft Rich Text Format. This bundles up the interesting info (the post) with some gobbledegook at the end as an attachment. Some mail readers see an attachment and think "Stuff this, I'm going to interpret it all as an attachment, and seeing as how I can't decode the last bit, I'll not decode any of it".

A pox on both their houses.

Emily
a gazillion-hour animaniacs marathon (*that*, btw, is a good show!)
Dammit, missed the Rolling Animaniacs Station. Again ):

Virtual Prague

However, one site you shouldn't miss is Stop Four on my Grand Tour of the World's Internet Pages. This week: live the Bohemian lifestyle by taking a trip to virtual Prague http://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/prague/ With all the information a tourist could need, and links to such English language resources as there are for this great city.

Back to Sara an' Michael. Hey, any excuse (:
>They sent woman into space long before America.
but wouldn't that just be because they might have more women astronauts?
Yes, the USSR had more womin astronaut (well, cosmonaut) than the US did. They had exactly one more; Valentina Terashkova. Went up in Vostok 6 in 1963 (IIRC), stayed up for a couple of days, then no womin went into space till '83.

Denise (hi!)
I feel like the only one not going back to school.
I'm not. Not that I've completed my education, but I'm taking it through the University of Life. Which, of course, ranks above the PRICK.

Angie enquires
What are your plans for the year 2000?
Enjoy the first year of the new decade, and the last year of the millennium. And tell everyone how many "n"s there are in that word.

Shobi brings out this time's Legal Differences Warning
In general most oral contracts (especially for goods or services) are *not* enforceable due to something called the parol evidence rule that states that certain contracts of a certain amount, a certain type of work, or a certain duration *must* be reduced to writing to be considered enforceable. These type of oral contracts can conceivably be enforced in spite of the parol evidence rule, but it is very difficult. That's why you should put all agreements you make in writing with all parties signing off on the writing.
This concept of "parol" is not found in English or Scottish law. A verbal contract is as good as a written one, for any amount of time or money. It is always easier to prove a signed, written contract, but it is not necessary to have it in writing to enforce it. ("Parole" is used in English law, referring to the release of a prisoner before the end of his sentence on the presumption of good behaviour for the remaining time.)

Shobi refers to his time with Shannon.
As for society, society is not harmed by what we did.
In the kindest possible way, I don't think that the protagonists in this are in a reasonable position to pass that kind of judgement. Please allow the rest of society to judge any harm.

Back to crazy laws. Sara reports
Serena has had numerous smoking fines, and has not paid any of them. Nothing at all has happened to her.
Does this not bring the legal system into total disrepute? I'd be hauling the guy (and it has to be a guy:) who wrote that statute up before the bench quicker than you can say periencephalitis.
I learned this lesson just a little bit ago, when one of my good friends told me that she had cheated on her boyfriend. WEll..I started judging her, and my opinion of her kinda went down. She finally confronted me about it, and I realized...I'm not there to judge her, I'm there to be her friend.
Ah, but is being her friend so inconsistant with telling her that she erred in cheating? Heck, if one of my buds were to impart such info, I would consider it my duty as a friend to tell him/her if I thought they were making a big boo-boo.
I might think what she did was wrong, but that doesn't mean that my opinion of her is any less anymore. I DO think, however, that she should ahve broken up with her boyfriend first, but as her friend, its not for me to say what to do with her life.
Just out of interest, what's the jiltee's take on all this?
that society isn't really being harmed. In a very tiny way, it is.
Make your mind up, please! Either it is, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways!

Five Go Mad In London

Andrea has a new favourite class
multivariate statistics
Such joy. Such interest. Such zzzzzzzzzz.

NT 5 is delayed so they can iron out all the bugs in it

Incidentally, MS's press office says that NT 5 is delayed so they can iron out all the bugs in it...

Billboard Online reports Jewel's new album out in early November, as is the newie from Alanis "Dance Sensation Of 1992" Morissette.

Angela writes of
I'm afraid that Mrs. B's idea of poetry has a lot to do with that young man from Leeds
Which one? The one that went down on his knees, prayed for some jam and a small smoked ham, and promptly got stung by some bees?

Slate
Independent

(SLATE's poetry correspondent writes: This is rubbish. Send it to the Indescribablyboring.)

~Laura
Well, just about any topic goes...except who Angela ended up with.
I thought it was Officer Dibble. Or was it Benny the Ball? Or Brains? No, wasn't it Choo-Choo?

Sara/Liz
>but.. legally... an oral contract is binding.
Is it? Huh. Weird.
Oh, it is totally. "Dictum meum pactum" - my word is my bond, and all that.
Seems more sensical to me to just regard that as a promise.
Nope: have a look at any good law book, and you'll find it's a legally binding contract.
Ooch, though, you should've *heard* our feminism discussion...ick
I think we did. As it happened, accounting for the time delay between upstate NY and here. Clear as a bell.

~Laura
I haven't seen 'The Avengers' yet. Everyone I know who has seen it was very disappointed. They said "it's a wait to rent." Has anyone seen it?
weaver.sister has. She says it's funny, but not in the way they intended it to be. Depends on how big a Sean Canary fan you are, apparently.

On that topic, Deca adds
"Would you like a cup of tea?"
Yes, please [/obmark]

Angela again
The lists with a letter on top of them are not for you to *read*
Then why are you sending them to the list? I thought sending stuff that made no sense was my perogative.
they are game sheets for Pack Your Suitcase. Anyone can play they just have to meet up in Pikestreet and start a game.
Which rules me out on the grounds that a) I don't have IRC, b) I access from work and don't have the time, and c) you Americans are all fast asleep when I'm up and about. I'll just go and Linus in the corner with ~Laura.

i'll just go and Linus in the corner with ~Laura.
coollist

Clearing up matters. Lixz
People are automatically divorced then if neither wants to be? Eish!
Nope, one or other of them has to petition for it. If they can show five years separation - not counting 6 months attempt at reconciling - then the divorce goes through. If both sides consent, the five years become just two.

Mark
It used to be the DHSS, Department for Health and Social Security... but then they dropped the H to become the DSS....
Yip, cabinet reshuffle in July '89 IIRC. Ken Clarke becomes the first Health secretary in yonks, and someone else (Sleaze Parkinson?) moved to Soc Sec.
Most wedding ceremonies (here at least) state "I now proclaim you Husband and Wife"
As I insinuated last time, the Book of Common Prayer (1635, or thereabouts) referred to husband and wife. The Alternative Service Book that Anglicans have used for the past 20 years has the husband formulation.

Brooks
I'll just have to eat ice cream in ohio
How was your ice cream?
I don't feel that adultery does break the scocial contract.
Got you. Personally, I disagree, for reasons expressed in previous posts, and ones that Sara put far more eloquently on Friday, but I support your right to have your own opinions.

Lixz
if you say a marriage is more than a financial tie, I challenge you to show how that is categorically true...for some marriages there is a religious or ceremonial factor involved. For others there is not.
Somehow, I think we'll never agree on this, but that's not going to stop me from presenting my case.

Fundamentally, marriage is a social construct. It's interpreted within specific cultural boundaries. In the Western culture, marriage is traditionally defined as the joining of one womin and one man as a permanent, child producing, couple. A couple that shares everything and is self-sufficient in as many matters as possible - including sex. That is the way marriage is culturally defined. It is axiomatically true. The underlying biological reason, I think, is to ensure that the male knows any offspring are his. There is an evolutionary disadvantage to the male nurturing progeny; this is offset by the certainty that his genes will be helped by his actions. The same applies to the femile.

Breaking any of these axioms of marriage will be frowned on by many in the community. Not producing offspring? You're not a proper family. Relying on nannies to look after your kids? Failure! Sleeping with the milkman? Cheat!

Rachel
Thanksgiving is at the end of November. Is it in October in Canada or Something?
Thanksgiving is at the end of the harvest season. That's the third week of October in Canada, and somewhere similar in the UK.

But then Sara adds
we're not going to use the Canadian date
In that case we'll just have to use both dates, and have two holidays. Any objections from the floor? Thought not.

Britt
I think that we're talkin' different stations here
Yip, my whole point. Though you might like one or both stations...

Eric's hoping for 8-8 from Oakland
John Gruden has them thinking like a team again
Which team? Not last year's Colts, we hope. Otherwise TPTB will expand the AFCW first, and that wouldn't do.

Eric's excellent exposition of civil/criminal cases: for both of you interested, these are the English and Scottish differences. At the end of a criminal case, you are found either guilty or not guilty
Scottish: the case can also be "not proven" - effectively, not guilty. There are proposals to ditch that verdict.
Also, in most jurisdictions in the US, to convict in a criminal case all 12 jurors must agree, where on a civil case 9-3 will serve to win the case for one side.
England: Unanimity among 12 jurors is preferred, but the judge can accept 10-2 or 11-1 majority verdicts. The jury can be reduced as low as 10 by illness or knowing someone involved; a majority verdict with one dissension will convict. This is in both civil and criminal cases.

Scotland: Unanimity among 15 is required in criminal cases; civils need unanimity among 12.

Shana
I used to play softball... haven't in a long time though. I should get back into it, a least just for fun. (anyone wanna come up here and play with me???)
[pitch] [pitch] [pitch] Go Shana Go!!

Andrea, welcome online.

Betsy, congrats on your lads going 2-0-0. More than a certain bunch of English sides managed this year, Manchester, Arsenal, West Brom. The Wolves have started 4-1-0. Undefeated in 5... (:

Sara's "Nu Man" quiz
What really drives you mad about women?
This assumes that there's something that applies to all womyn. The only things I can think of are a direct result of their biological status. Next question, please. And make it a sensible one.
What do you think women want from you?
This assumes that there's something that all womyn want from me. Quite clearly, that's a pile of bunk, too.
What do you think about girl power?
As a rallying call for young womyn, it's fine. It's not codified into the exactness of "this is cool, this is not" that would baffle. It's deliberately inclusive. And that's its weakness - trying to be all things to all people means that (almost) no-one will find it perfect.
Does girl power mean the age of chivalry is dead?
No. It just cuts both ways. Men and womyn are expected to be nice to each other.
Are any of you new men?
Is that something to do with new labour? No thanks.
Do you reckon women could cope without men?
They'd probably make a better fist of trying than men without womyn, but neither scenario would last for long without major internal dissent.

Sara, out of quiz mode
they're not like 'real' crimes
Either they're real crimes, for which there are real punishments, or they're surreal crimes, for which there are surreal punishments. Like having to watch Richard & Judy for a week (ugh!)
its on our tv from sky :)
Curses, he said, sans wok.
at home, its normal practice to have it done. They must have a reason to do this, and it would have to be a health reason.
Nope, it's pure tradition. There is no health reason in the general case. There may be individual cases, but in general, it's not needed. Just supersitious nonsense.
its supposed to HELP your sex life!!! You're supposed to last longer
Er, but it doesn't.
I would rather have the operation done, which causes no harm whatsoever, than have that chance that they might get infected.
Occam's Razor, as applied to health care. No operation, drug, or other medical procedure carries exactly zero risk. There is a small risk going with that snip, and it's also an irreversible op. Unlike leaving it...
I also want to hear it from someone who is impartial. basically... someone not from England.
You will. Oddly enough, people do still have this op done. You're more likely to hear impartial advice from the medics here than in the US.
at home, you get MORE benefits if you are married.
The payment to a couple is higher than the payment to one person, natch, but less than the payment to two people. Is that the case in Wisconsin?
what is where's wally?
Have a look in a bookship. Or a bookshop.
I just always think about the poor people that are being cheated on though. I mean..I'd like to protec tthose people as much as I possibly could.
I'm sure they're glad of your assistance. When will you be starting on this noble quest?

Anna, then Andrea
>I do not think that getting married to keep someone in this country is usually the right thing to do.
Isn't this illegal anyway?
Ob UK warning - other countries may differ. The "primary purpose" rule, enacted under the 1981 Immigration and Citizenship Act, made it impossible to enter the UK if the primary purpose of the marriage was to bring one person into the UK. This was decided by the Immigration service, with appeal to the High Court - beyond the means of almost all applicants.

This law was repealed by the new New Labour government last year; at the same time they equalised the entry conditions for gay and straight couples. They left certain oddities in the citizenship rules, such as UK citizenship is only conferred on the offspring of existing UK citizens, not on all babies born in the UK.

And, with the clock ticking round to September, I bid you a pinch and a punch.