Babble v1 115

babble-digest Wednesday, January 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 115

In this issue:
A city web site - could you give me an example?
Netscape thumbs it's nose at Web developers
RE: Netscape thumbs it's nose at Web developers
Web database design
Re: Web database design
RE: Web database design
RE: babble-digest V1 #113
Image maps vs. separate images
vector graphics & the web
Message not deliverable
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:42:15 +0200
From: Armand Niculescu <armand@starnets.ro>
Subject: A city web site - could you give me an example?

Hi Babblers!

We're about to start a big project, a web site for a town that will
contain all sorts of info for tourists: history, culture, monuments,
leisure, maps and so on.

Before starting the design process, I'd like to see some well-made
sites of the same kind. If you know a good site or have designed one,
I'd like to see how it looks - structure, design, facilities.
Of course, I've visited some sites myself, but they were rather
mediocre.

Thanks,
Armand.

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:57:33 -0800
From: "Michael Liu" <mliu@compellingimages.com>
Subject: Netscape thumbs it's nose at Web developers

Dear fellow Web Developers,

I was reading Jeffrey Zeldman's response to the background image-map
question (on the H5 Babble Design List). In the part about eliminating
browser offsets, Jeffery states:

> you can kill offsets in IE3, IE4, and netscape 4 by putting
>
> LEFTMARGIN="0" TOPMARGIN="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0"
>
> (all four of the suckers) in your BODY tag.

I had read about this "solution" a short while back and it infuriated me
then (actually, I read it in one of Jeffery's earlier posts...thanks
Jeffery for info!). But I bit my lip and didn't say anything. However,
I just can't restrain my anger any longer.

I think it's absolute BS that Netscape deliberately ignored Microsoft's
existing "LEFTMARGIN" and "RIGHTMARGIN" tags. While it may have been an
attempt to thumb it's nose at Microsoft, what Netscape ultimately did was
thumb it's nose at Web developers. And we're not talking about some
insignificant or obscure tag like "BLINK"; this is something *Web
developers* have been begging Netscape to implement for some time. I find
Netscape's total disregard for us--and for compatible HTML standards--to be
totally intolerable!

And yet I don't see a huge pouring of outrage amongst the Web development
community. Why is that? Is it because it was "Netscape the Underdog" that
committed this childish offense, and not "Microsoft the Company that
Everyone Loves to Hate"? Just imagine if Microsoft had pulled this stunt
with Internet Explorer; it probably would have made headline news.

I think it's time for us, as professional Web developers, to stop playing
favorites with either Netscape or Microsoft and hold both company's feet to
the fire when they act irresponsibly. I'm tired of being a collateral
casualty in their war for browser market domination. Good Web design is
hard enough as it is!

Personally, I wish both companies would stop this game of browser
one-upmanship, temporarily forget about trying to develop new gizmos (like
push technology), and go back and FIX the older--yet mainstream--browsers
like MSIE3 and NN3. For example, why can't Microsoft release a
self-installing patch (like they did with the 3.02 security upgrade) that
adds true JavaScript 1.1 compatibility to MSIE3 (so mouseovers will work)?
And why can't Netscape release a self-installing patch that adds
"LEFTMARGIN" and "RIGHTMARGIN" support to NN3 so we don't have to use
stupid frame tricks to get a zero-offset Web page?

OK, so maybe now I'm dreaming! But thank you all for letting me get this
off my chest.

(Note: Since neither Netscape or Microsoft seem to have a feedback e-mail
address for me to CC this message to, I copied it into both companies
feedback forms on their respective Web sites.)

Regards,

Michael Liu
Compelling Images(SM)
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:15:31 +0200
From: Steven Crane <stevec@datapro.co.za>
Subject: RE: Netscape thumbs it's nose at Web developers

Actually Microsoft does have such an address. It is
mswish@microsoft.com.

Steve Crane (MCSD, SBN2 Member)
E-mail ......... mailto:stevec@datapro.co.za
Web (Company) .. http://www.datapro.co.za
(Personal).. http://home.pix.za/pa/pak00325
ICQ Pager ...... http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4364105

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Liu [SMTP:mliu@compellingimages.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 9:58 AM
> To: Babble List; Web Design List
> Subject: Netscape thumbs it's nose at Web developers
>
> Dear fellow Web Developers,
>
> I was reading Jeffrey Zeldman's response to the background image-map
> question (on the H5 Babble Design List). In the part about
> eliminating
> browser offsets, Jeffery states:
>
> > you can kill offsets in IE3, IE4, and netscape 4 by putting
> >
> > LEFTMARGIN="0" TOPMARGIN="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0"
> >
> > (all four of the suckers) in your BODY tag.
>
> I had read about this "solution" a short while back and it infuriated
> me
> then (actually, I read it in one of Jeffery's earlier posts...thanks
> Jeffery for info!). But I bit my lip and didn't say anything.
> However,
> I just can't restrain my anger any longer.
>
> I think it's absolute BS that Netscape deliberately ignored
> Microsoft's
> existing "LEFTMARGIN" and "RIGHTMARGIN" tags. While it may have been
> an
> attempt to thumb it's nose at Microsoft, what Netscape ultimately did
> was
> thumb it's nose at Web developers. And we're not talking about some
> insignificant or obscure tag like "BLINK"; this is something *Web
> developers* have been begging Netscape to implement for some time. I
> find
> Netscape's total disregard for us--and for compatible HTML
> standards--to be
> totally intolerable!
>
> And yet I don't see a huge pouring of outrage amongst the Web
> development
> community. Why is that? Is it because it was "Netscape the Underdog"
> that
> committed this childish offense, and not "Microsoft the Company that
> Everyone Loves to Hate"? Just imagine if Microsoft had pulled this
> stunt
> with Internet Explorer; it probably would have made headline news.
>
> I think it's time for us, as professional Web developers, to stop
> playing
> favorites with either Netscape or Microsoft and hold both company's
> feet to
> the fire when they act irresponsibly. I'm tired of being a collateral
> casualty in their war for browser market domination. Good Web design
> is
> hard enough as it is!
>
> Personally, I wish both companies would stop this game of browser
> one-upmanship, temporarily forget about trying to develop new gizmos
> (like
> push technology), and go back and FIX the older--yet
> mainstream--browsers
> like MSIE3 and NN3. For example, why can't Microsoft release a
> self-installing patch (like they did with the 3.02 security upgrade)
> that
> adds true JavaScript 1.1 compatibility to MSIE3 (so mouseovers will
> work)?
> And why can't Netscape release a self-installing patch that adds
> "LEFTMARGIN" and "RIGHTMARGIN" support to NN3 so we don't have to use
> stupid frame tricks to get a zero-offset Web page?
>
> OK, so maybe now I'm dreaming! But thank you all for letting me get
> this
> off my chest.
>
> (Note: Since neither Netscape or Microsoft seem to have a feedback
> e-mail
> address for me to CC this message to, I copied it into both companies
> feedback forms on their respective Web sites.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Liu
> Compelling Images(SM)
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to
> majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
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..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:41:59 -0600
From: Chana Campos <writers@swbell.net>
Subject: Web database design

I want to create a database which will hold web page content - primarily
text. This database would then (either by date or running a script)
update the pages within the Web site. Managing the web text content
would then become largely a question of managing the database. A basic
front-end form could collect the article information so that HTML could
be generated from it - and then inserted into the proper fields. My
question is:

1. Is there an existing product out there that anyone knows of (for less
than $5,000.00) that can do this? (Pickings are slim on the Net on this
question...)

2. Does anyone here have experience using Access, SQLServer, etc. for
this kind of project?

Thanks for any assistance which you can provide - it is gratefully
appreciated!

Chana
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:05:47 -0800
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: Web database design

Chana -

>1. Is there an existing product out there that anyone knows of (for less
>than $5,000.00) that can do this? (Pickings are slim on the Net on this
>question...)

Yeah, quite easily. But you can find it for free. Run an Apache server,
compile it with the PHP module, and write and/or find one of any number of
scripts that'll update content by the date. Totally free.

>2. Does anyone here have experience using Access, SQLServer, etc. for
>this kind of project?

mSQL and mySQL are my favorites. We use ACT 3.0 for a front end database
solution (though not usually for web content, but for catalogs and such.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:14:27 +0200
From: Steven Crane <stevec@datapro.co.za>
Subject: RE: Web database design

If you're on a Microsoft NT server then Active Server Pages is the way
to go.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chana Campos [SMTP:writers@swbell.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:42 PM
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: Web database design
>
> I want to create a database which will hold web page content -
> primarily
> text. This database would then (either by date or running a script)
> update the pages within the Web site. Managing the web text content
> would then become largely a question of managing the database. A basic
> front-end form could collect the article information so that HTML
> could
> be generated from it - and then inserted into the proper fields. My
> question is:
>
> 1. Is there an existing product out there that anyone knows of (for
> less
> than $5,000.00) that can do this? (Pickings are slim on the Net on
> this
> question...)
>
> 2. Does anyone here have experience using Access, SQLServer, etc. for
> this kind of project?
>
> Thanks for any assistance which you can provide - it is gratefully
> appreciated!
>
> Chana
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to
> majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
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.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:30 -0600
From: "Rose, Keith W" <kwrose@ingr.com>
Subject: RE: babble-digest V1 #113

Douglas,
here are a few sites that I found:
http://www.dhtmlzone.com/index.html
http://www.webreview.com/97/05/30/feature/tutorial.html
Hope they prove useful...good luck
Keith Rose
Graphic Design
(205) 730-4047

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:42:11 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Image maps vs. separate images

>I'm surprised that no one yet has said anything about how useless almost
>all of those image maps are; the first three of them could just be
>replaced with HREF tags around the images. Granted this wouldn't confine
>the active area to just the yellow buttons (it would include some of the
>chrome area around them), but the images are cropped close enough that
>that really shouldn't be an issue.

I agree with Porter. I try to stay away from image maps whenever possible.
One advantage to using separate HREF'ed images he didn't mention is when
you have to make a change. With an image map, you have to change the entire
image and create new coordinates. With separate images, you just insert the
new image wherever necessary with a new HREF.

Nice look on the Marigo site! Buttons are still cool when done well.
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:54:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Ostroth <marost@vangogh.bergen.org>
Subject: vector graphics & the web

>From reading messages on this list, I have noticed that some people use
Illustrator to create web pages, so that they can make graphics that look
good on the web and in print. David Siegel also notes that he uses
Pagemaker or Quark to create web sites (in the second edition of CKWS),
also for the same purpose.

How does one accomplish this without getting that terrible aliasing (that
becomes smoothed when printed) for use on the web?

______________________
Mark Ostroth
marost@bergen.org
www.bergen.org/~marost

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #115
****************************

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