Babble v1 117

babble-digest Wednesday, January 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 117

In this issue:
TECH: Push
Re: vector graphics & the web
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
RE: Web database design
City Site
RE: A city web site - could you give me an example?
256 Color folks
Background Images - Cheating is Necessary
Cookies
TECH: Saving selections in PS?
Re: 256 Color folks
Re: 256 Color folks
Re: TECH: Saving selections in PS?
TECH: JPEG's leave pinkish "residue" on pages

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:44:17 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: TECH: Push

Anybody using push technology? My company is considering it but aside
from pushing out new promos to clients I don't see much reason to use
it. Anybody using this technology? In what capacity? Any problems? I
suspect we'll be using the MArimba/Castanet/Netscape version rather than
MS's Active Channels if it makes a difference.

Thanks.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 14:52:45 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: vector graphics & the web

Mark Ostroth wrote,

>From reading messages on this list, I have noticed that some people use
>Illustrator to create web pages, so that they can make graphics that look
>good on the web and in print. David Siegel also notes that he uses
>Pagemaker or Quark to create web sites (in the second edition of CKWS),
>also for the same purpose.
>
>How does one accomplish this without getting that terrible aliasing (that
>becomes smoothed when printed) for use on the web?

You can design your page in Illustrator and get the benefits of kerning
and all those typograpic niceities that Photoshop doesn't have and simply
drag the whole lot over to a Photoshop 72 ppi window where it converts to
an anti-aliased bitmap. I wouldn't dream of doing it for a whole page
though, just for the non-HTML text elements.

Just make sure that you work in RGB in Illustrator, not CMYK. Illustrator
7 has a web palette of RGB colours.

Adobe also do something called ScreenReady that you can print to and it
produces an anti-aliased bitmap of the whole page at 72 ppi, but if you
already have Photoshop, that's all you need.

Joe

W e b P a g e D e s i g n f o r D e s i g n e r s
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the new site at http://www.wpdfd.com/ email: joe@wpdfd.com

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:29:32 -0500
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Subject: Delivery Report

Non-Delivery Report: To: Administrator at CSERVE
Subject: babble-digest V1 #116
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:29:25 -0500
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Subject: Delivery Report

Non-Delivery Report: To: Administrator at CSERVE
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:29:32 -0500
From: Gateway@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com
Subject: Delivery Report

Non-Delivery Report: To: Administrator at CSERVE
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:48:52 -0800
From: "Anita Rowland (S&T Onsite)" <a-anitar@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Web database design

Hi, Chana!

In addition to the answers others have posted, I suggest you check out
Frontier 5!

It's a database, it's a scripting language, it's a web publishing system.
Frontier has existed on the mac for several years. It's now available for
win32 platforms as well. I'm just getting started on it. The user community
is great! mailing lists, tutorials, etc.

oh, and it's free!

http://www.scripting.com/frontier5/
http://www.scripting.com/frontier5/community/default.html
http://www.scripting.com/frontier5/whatIsFrontier.html

Anita Rowland mailto:anitar@halcyon.com
Home page -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/welcome.html
Anita's Book of Days -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/journal/
Seattle Cacophony Society -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/cacoph.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chana Campos [SMTP:writers@swbell.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 4:42 AM
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: Web database design
>
> I want to create a database which will hold web page content - primarily
> text. This database would then (either by date or running a script)
> update the pages within the Web site. Managing the web text content
> would then become largely a question of managing the database. A basic
> front-end form could collect the article information so that HTML could
> be generated from it - and then inserted into the proper fields. My
> question is:
>
> 1. Is there an existing product out there that anyone knows of (for less
> than $5,000.00) that can do this? (Pickings are slim on the Net on this
> question...)
>
> 2. Does anyone here have experience using Access, SQLServer, etc. for
> this kind of project?
>
> Thanks for any assistance which you can provide - it is gratefully
> appreciated!
>
> Chana
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:52:50 -0800
From: Robert Niemeier <Marketing@justcallinc.com>
Subject: City Site

http://stlouis.missouri.org/

While we were only involved in a small part of this site, I like it.
Each city department has kind of created their own web site, which got
them involved, but made navigation coordination interesting.

They sponsored a Web Fair in which each city neighborhood developed
their own website on a basic template. The event was very well
organized and well attended something like 95% of the cities
neighborhoods participated.

We also, did a neighborhood web page

http://www.justcallinc.com/shaw

And a community event:

http://www.shawartfair.com

These are minor events with no budget, but the key was getting people in
the neighborhood to work together on the project. It helped bring the
community together in a neat way.

Bob Niemeier
Just Call, Inc.
http://www.justcallinc.com
Web Design and Web Graphics

>
> Hi Babblers!
>
> We're about to start a big project, a web site for a town that will
> contain all sorts of info for tourists: history, culture, monuments,
> leisure, maps and so on.
>
> Before starting the design process, I'd like to see some well-made
> sites of the same kind. If you know a good site or have designed one,
> I'd like to see how it looks - structure, design, facilities.
> Of course, I've visited some sites myself, but they were rather
> mediocre.
>
> Thanks,
> Armand.
>

> ****************************
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:58:16 -0500
From: "Brian M. Platz" <platz.brian@infoband.com>
Subject: RE: A city web site - could you give me an example?

Armand,

Check out <http://www.acityline.com>. We didn't design it, however we
worked on most of the back-end applications. It is fairly extensive and
lots to do for a local website.

Brian Platz, Moderator
The WebDevelopment Discussion Digest
A moderated email forum for beginning thru advanced Web Developers
To subscribe, mailto:wd@gs2.revnet.com
In the BODY of your message, put: JOIN

On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 5:42 AM, Armand Niculescu
[SMTP:armand@starnets.ro] wrote:
> We're about to start a big project, a web site for a town that will
> contain all sorts of info for tourists: history, culture, monuments,
> leisure, maps and so on.
>
> Before starting the design process, I'd like to see some well-made
> sites of the same kind. If you know a good site or have designed one,
> I'd like to see how it looks - structure, design, facilities.
> Of course, I've visited some sites myself, but they were rather
> mediocre.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:59:43 -0800
From: Jack Mahan <jmahan@ethosolutions.com>
Subject: 256 Color folks

Hello Folks,

New to list and this seems to be great place; great place for an old,
aching, thorny question.

Browser-safe palettes (sp?) aside, when we all reboot are machines down
to 256 colors to have a look-see at what has happened to our work, and
stare in abject horror at the ugly decompressed JPEGS, how far are you
willing to go for those people out there who go thru life in a 8-bit haze?

Do we know, even approximately, how many people out there DO browse at
256 colors? Do we care? (Not talking about technicolor chrome, just
picking colors that don't include xxyyxx etc...)

Toodles,
Jack
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:13:25 -0700
From: Darwin Mecham <darwin.mecham@anl.gov>
Subject: Background Images - Cheating is Necessary

Michael & all,

I needed a map that I could click and show a path from point a to point b. Not easy
to do...

Most href calls do something / go somewhere... I wanted to stay put and just set
values.

The following technique is convoluted but will work.

#1. - Define a table with 1 row x 1col
#2. - make the background for that cell your background map with transparent
back.
#3. - Define a table nested inside the 1st table with the granularity you need
for
your overlay. IE. 25rows x 30col
#4. - Insert the gifs you want to use to overlay the background in the
appropriate
cells.

#5. - The hard part - use a javascript call to turn the overlay gifs on/off as
may be
needed. - From your message I don't know if you need to do this.

The real key is the nested table concept with the main gif file as the background
for the 1st
table's only cell.

You can do some of this with available html editors - but watch out - they all
assume that
you must be daft trying to build a table with only one cell - they will helpfully
insert a second
cell in your table.

Do your finish editing by hand!

If you need a link to an example of this (done at great loss of hair) just e-mail
me.

TTFN ~ Darwin
darwin.mecham@anl.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 11:30:15 -0500
From: Wendy Clark <clark@portland.com>
Subject: Cookies

Hi all,

I was recently given the task of collecting information on cookies and
I'm looking for any contributions. This also might prove to be an
interesting thread. For those who don't know what a cookie is, NetLingo
defines it as:

"A special piece of information about you, something you clicked on,
and/or your computer system which is stored in a text file on your hard
drive. This information is usually accessed by a server when you connect
to a Web site which wants to know some information about you or your
system."
(for the complete definition, see
<http://www.netlingo.com/c.html#cookie>)

Now, I can get definitions and zillions of search engine results myself,
but I'm hoping to spark some interest here and get feedback from a
designer/producer standpoint. Specifically,

- - Where are good places for specifics about cookies? (how they work, how
to implement them, etc.) I've already visited Netscape's documentation at
<http://home.netscape.com/newsref/std/cookie_spec.html>. Are there others
you know of?

- - What are the best and/or worst uses of cookies that you've seen?
Examples might include shopping carts and email address collection.

- - What are your opinions on the use of cookies? Do you feel it's an
invasion of privacy or do you like that some sites recognize you when you
return? Do you set your browser to warn you before accepting a cookie? Do
you use cookies on your sites?

And lastly... Got milk?

___________________________
Wendy Clark
New Media Development Group
http://www.nmdg.com
clark@portland.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:04:47 -0600
From: richard-lists@icnewmedia.com (Richard Tallent)
Subject: TECH: Saving selections in PS?

As many of us do, we work a great deal with images
created in Photoshop and then diced up to produce
GIFs to be pieced together on a web site.

Unfortunately, every change to an image requires the
back-breaking process of re-cutting up the images.

Is there an automated, simple way to do this in PS
3.x? or 4.x? Maybe we've been looking over something
obvious.

The best solution we've found so far is to create "crop
mask" layers which remain hidden until we are ready to
output. We then unhide them, use them to simplify the
work of selecting the pieces to save to various output
files (show layer/flatten/wand/invert/crop/mode change/save).

Maybe a plugin? Anyone up to writing one? It should save
the grid and the output filenames.

- --
Richard "If only PSP would add layers and a good text tool" Tallent
Internet Cyber-Creations, Inc.
http://www.icnewmedia.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:22:51 -0400
From: Justin Blecher <justin@digitalpulp.com>
Subject: Re: 256 Color folks

Jack Mahan wrote:

> Browser-safe palettes (sp?) aside, when we all reboot are machines down
> to 256 colors to have a look-see at what has happened to our work, and
> stare in abject horror at the ugly decompressed JPEGS, how far are you
> willing to go for those people out there who go thru life in a 8-bit haze?
>
> Do we know, even approximately, how many people out there DO browse at
> 256 colors? Do we care? (Not talking about technicolor chrome, just
> picking colors that don't include xxyyxx etc...)
>
> Toodles,
> Jack

</LURK>

jack,

first and foremost, what machine are you using to design your web pages?
nearly every current OS (os8, win95/nt) will let you switch resolution/color
depth without rebooting.

anyway, what the heck is wrong with 8-bit? 8 bits is MORE than enough for
most images (except maybe detailed photos). it also places a limit (somewhat)
on the filesize of the images. people out there still surf on 14.4 modems.
like most developers, bandwidth is a big concern of mine. banish that
limitation, and people will start churning out even sloppier images than the
ones floating around the web now. PNG could be the answer -- it seems like a
great format, but it has yet to be supported correctly by the browsers.

after producing stuff for the web for nearly 4 years, i have come across some
cool workarounds for the common problems/limitations of 8bit images, HMTL
tables, etc. if anybody wants me to expound upon them, just say the word.

i could go on and on about limitations, but i'll try to keep this brief. i
have worked with electronic music technology for a while now, and while there
were a great deal of limitations on synthesizers/samplers in the early and mid
80's, people made some great stuff on that 'antiquated' equipment.
limitations don't *always* have to stifle creativity. concentrate on what you
DO have, not on what you DON'T.

okay...i'll stop now before i really start rambling. anybody else agree?

later,

justin
- --

/ | ... justin blecher digital pulp, inc. .... \
/ | __ __ ... email: justin@digitalpulp.com .......... __ __ \
\ ... voice: 212.679.0676 x235 ............... /
\ o ... ICQ#: 1695230 PGP KeyID: 0xBOF97852 ... /
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:32:54 -0500
From: Jeffrey Miller <jeff@l9.com>
Subject: Re: 256 Color folks

Jack Mahan wrote:
>
> Browser-safe palettes (sp?) aside, when we all reboot are machines down
> to 256 colors to have a look-see at what has happened to our work, and
> stare in abject horror at the ugly decompressed JPEGS, how far are you
> willing to go for those people out there who go thru life in a 8-bit haze?

Not far enough, according to some people. I religiously include ALT tags
for text & image-off browsers, and I always check on as many flavors of
browsers as I can (around 12 or so) on a Mac and Wintel (3.1, 95, & NT)
and on a Mac and Wintel Dial-Up as well as AOL.

Speaking directly to the "256" issue - I try to keep within said group
of colors, but I can only go so far - the 216 palette seems to contain
no color that occurs naturally in the cosmos, so photo-quality images
never seem to look good - I do the best I can, but am opposed to any
reduction of my pages to a "Lowest Common Denominator" mentality. I will
try to accommodate, but will never compromise quality.

- -Jeffrey-
- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeffrey Miller - Production/Creative Design
Level Nine - http://www.L9.com
Home Page - http://www.amergin.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 13:27:10 -0400
From: Justin Blecher <justin@digitalpulp.com>
Subject: Re: TECH: Saving selections in PS?

Richard Tallent wrote:

> As many of us do, we work a great deal with images
> created in Photoshop and then diced up to produce
> GIFs to be pieced together on a web site.

*snip*

> The best solution we've found so far is to create "crop
> mask" layers which remain hidden until we are ready to
> output. We then unhide them, use them to simplify the
> work of selecting the pieces to save to various output
> files (show layer/flatten/wand/invert/crop/mode change/save).

Richard,

hmmm....i don't' quite understand your layers approach. seems like you are
going through lots of hoops. here's a brief synopsis of the general way I do
it. YMMV.

1 - start w/ big monster photoshop file w/ layers.
2 - arrange a 'grid' on the image using ps4's guides.
3 - save it! :)
4 - select the areas of each 'image' and create channel from selection.
5 - name the channel something meaningful! :)

now you have all your 'images' defined

6 - select area via your named channels
7 - then, in one fell swoop:
a. cmd/ctrl-shift-c (copy merged)
b. cmd/ctrl-n (new file) ...don't forget to name it now...save a step later
c. cmd/ctrl-v (paste)
8 - flatten newly crated image
9 - cmd/ctrl-w (close & save it)

once all my images are chopped up, i switch over to debab and batch process
all i can. that leaves me w/ a master file and all separate images (to
process in debab). i still have to go back to the photoshop file to edit
stuff (text/other changes) and then re-'save' it. since i get soooo many
revisions of the files, i need to keep the files up to date and work from ONE
file (my master template w/ my grids). i don't always do the selection via
the channels, mind you. sometimes i'm lazy. ;)

have no fear if you don't happpen to have debab in your office. you *can
still* do the above steps and convert the images to GIFs with the built-in
actions of photoshop. not the best, but it will work. and it's faster than
doing it 'manually'.

later,

justin
[two messages in one day....i'm on a roll]

- --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:26:43 +0100
From: "Halans Jean-Jacques" <jean.jacques.halans@skynet.be>
Subject: TECH: JPEG's leave pinkish "residue" on pages

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BD1BA2.30219100
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"pink jpegs"
Yes a point I had trouble with too.
I just made it a transparent gif to solve this problem of
wrong whites, which almost tripled the bytesize.
www.greensleep.com (under construction/ no enlish)
- ->the sleeping men were first jpeg but with the pinkish white
now they're gifs. Is this too heavy???

Halans Jean-Jacques
halans@leplae.be
- ->www.leplae.be
- ->www.leplae.be/fa
- ->www.leplae.be/remind
- ->www.leplae.be/wingsoft
- ->www.leplae.be/proxycast

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End of babble-digest V1 #117
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