Babble v1 120

babble-digest Friday, January 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 120

In this issue:
Re: naming conventions
Re: How 2 Turn Off Sound
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Style Sheets tools pointer
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: designing for screen resolutions - table size
Re: designing for screen resolutions
css and javascript on steroids
Re: New H5
Re: javascript help please
re: looking for site
Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Re: TECH: javascript help please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:18:23 -0600
From: egan jones <wahoo@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: naming conventions

>Does anyone have any information on specific naming conventions for
>files that
>they use when designing a site? Any information would be most helpful.
>Doug.

I try to stick with 8.3 (using lowercase ISO9660 chars or ms-dos chars),
primarily because I also port websites to CD-ROM. It's the least common
denominator and should work fine on all systems, even if compressed and
downloaded as .zip, etc. I really adheir to 8.3 if I'm using javascript
because many converters can't deal with js.

wahoo!!--

egan jones ......................................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
digital producer - utcd http://www.utexas.edu/utcd
center for instructional technologies http://www.utexas.edu/cc/cit
512.475.9328.w 512.472.3315.h http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~egan
mailto:egan@mail.utexas.edu http://mmsgi02.cc.utexas.edu/egan

.....,,,,,;,,,,,,.....

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:18:28 -0600
From: egan jones <wahoo@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: How 2 Turn Off Sound

>I'm using the following to embed sound in a webpage:
>
><embed src="sound.mid" hidden="true" autostart="true">
><noembed><bgsound src="sound.mid"></noembed>
>
>I would like to use a very small image map (or two images)
>to turn the sound on & off, could someone please tell me how?

For the netscape javascript side see the area in and around:
http://live.netscape.com/comprod/products/navigator/version_3.0/multimedia/audio
/audio_script.html

.....,,,,,;,,,,,,.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:31:03 -0500
From: Sichon Domrongchai <scottd@interzine.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

I'm a graphic designer for Interzine Productions
(http://www.interzine.com) and it's been their policy from the get go to
design sites for the lowest common denominator. So basically we build
our tables 580 to 600 wide. I guess with the web these days, especially
when you're trying to appeal to a mass consumer market, you'd like to
try to accommodate as many people as you can.

Sichon Domrongchai (I'll be a native Bostonian soon....burrrr!)
- ---------------------------------------------------
Online Portfolio: http://members.aol.com/sichondana
- ---------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:34:47 -0500
From: "Joe Calleja" <joe@torweb.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

> how do you determine what you are going to use for a basis of layout?

for me, the challange of web design is allowing for flexibility. By
centering a table defined as a percentage of the total width of the window,
and by carefully nesting flex-width tables within the main table for text
and images, you can get acceptable margins AND text line-lenghts that
aren't unreadable. Here's a VERY preliminary test page I'm developing for a
client, which shows this principal:

http://www2.torweb.com/joetest/bigflower.htm

Notice that the main table is defined as a percentage, and nested within it
are flexible cells AND flexible sub-tables. The nested sub-tables contain
copy which doesn't expand to the full width of the window, which would make
it almost unreadable if the monitor was too large. And, by carefully
aligning the images, I get the same look and feel no matter what the size
of viewing area.

So, I design so that all the important information is veiwable at the top
of the window on a small screen, but make sure that if the view is
expanded, the information displayed also expands effectively.

I'd appreciate any comments people may have on this approach.

Joe Calleja | Creative Director
Toronto Web Services
416.955.1779 | joe@torweb.com
visit us at http://www.torweb.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:37:28 -0800
From: "Anita Rowland (S&T Onsite)" <a-anitar@microsoft.com>
Subject: Style Sheets tools pointer

hi, Carla!

you don't mention desired platform, or why you just wouldn't write the
stylesheet yourself (they are just text files, anyway!). but...

This very useful CSS pointers page:
http://members.aol.com/sjacct/index.html
has some software listed in the misc section.

http://www.w3.org/Style/ has a section listing recent software that has
something to do with CSS, also.

Anita Rowland a-anitar@microsoft.com
IE Program Management Team

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carla [SMTP:cmarina@sprynet.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 1998 2:02 AM
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: Photoshop and Style Sheets
>
> Couple questions-
>
> 1. I'm looking for maybe something that's shareware for style sheets, or
> even some really good ones. Don't mind shelling out the money if it's
> worth
> it.
>
<snip photoshop question>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:07:55 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

it works...very cool

At 10:35 AM 1/9/98 -0800, michael@net-make.com wrote:
>At 11:26 AM 1/9/98 -0600, Erik Wurzer wrote:
>>Okay, here's a question for all you intrepid designers out there... since
>>you have no way of knowing what resolution the viewer's screen will be at,
>>how do you determine what you are going to use for a basis of layout?
>
>----------------------------
>
>Hi Erik, everyone -
>
>This particular topic has bugged me since day one. However, there may be a
>solution:
>
>(NOTE: this is untested, but in theory, it should work - I invite all to
>test this out and see if in fact, it is a workaround - it may be specific
>to certain browsers, don't know yet).
>
><head>
><script language="javascript">
>
></script>
></head>
>
>I sincerely hope this isn't a waste of time in testing - if it does not
>work, my apologies to all. But I thought I'd give it a shot, there has to
>be *some way* to do this.
>
>___________________________
>mailto:webmaster@net-make.com
>http://www.net-make.com/
>```````````````````````````
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>
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 12:34:37 -0800
From: "michael@net-make.com" <webmaster@net-make.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

At 01:07 PM 1/9/98 -0700, Nathan Perry wrote:
>it works...very cool

>>
>><head>
>><script language="javascript">
>>
>></script>
>></head>
>>
- ----------------------------

Hi Nathan -

what browser(s)? what OS do you have, etc . . . ?

glad to hear it works :)
___________________________
mailto:webmaster@net-make.com
http://www.net-make.com/
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:05:35 -0000
From: "Howard Shaw" <hjs@hetleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Calleja <joe@torweb.com>

>for me, the challange of web design is allowing for flexibility. By
>centering a table defined as a percentage of the total width of the
window,
>and by carefully nesting flex-width tables within the main table for
text
>and images, you can get acceptable margins AND text line-lenghts that
>aren't unreadable. Here's a VERY preliminary test page I'm developing
for a
>client, which shows this principal:
>
>http://www2.torweb.com/joetest/bigflower.htm

Yes - this is the way to go. Scalability. What happens to all those
600pix wide designs if the next big thing is only 500 wide? Worrying
about fixed widths is a hangover from book design. The web is different.
You need to design flexibly so that it looks good on any output device.
Have you seen Hotwireds' latest splash page? Even images can scale ;)

Stylesheets using percentages and em units will help people with the
adjustment to a different medium.

Howard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:13:20 -0600
From: Richard Bondi <rbondi@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

It'll only work for Navigator 4+, and it may not work on MSIE 4 -- it
certainly won't work on MSIE3.
RB
At 01:07 PM 1/9/98 -0700, Nathan Perry wrote:
>it works...very cool
>
>At 10:35 AM 1/9/98 -0800, michael@net-make.com wrote:
>>At 11:26 AM 1/9/98 -0600, Erik Wurzer wrote:
>>>Okay, here's a question for all you intrepid designers out there... since
>>>you have no way of knowing what resolution the viewer's screen will be at,
>>>how do you determine what you are going to use for a basis of layout?
>>
>>----------------------------
>>
>>Hi Erik, everyone -
>>
>>This particular topic has bugged me since day one. However, there may be a
>>solution:
>>
>>(NOTE: this is untested, but in theory, it should work - I invite all to
>>test this out and see if in fact, it is a workaround - it may be specific
>>to certain browsers, don't know yet).
>>
>><head>
>><script language="javascript">
>>
>></script>
>></head>
>>
>>I sincerely hope this isn't a waste of time in testing - if it does not
>>work, my apologies to all. But I thought I'd give it a shot, there has to
>>be *some way* to do this.
>>
>>___________________________
>>mailto:webmaster@net-make.com
>>http://www.net-make.com/
>>```````````````````````````
>>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>>
>>
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>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:18:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions - table size

i believe the actual width you should use for 640 reso is 565 pixels
wide...some 640 resos are actually smaller than others... youd be
surprised.

but at 565 .. nothing will scroll... at least in my experinece.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Sichon Domrongchai wrote:

> I'm a graphic designer for Interzine Productions
> (http://www.interzine.com) and it's been their policy from the get go to
> design sites for the lowest common denominator. So basically we build
> our tables 580 to 600 wide. I guess with the web these days, especially
> when you're trying to appeal to a mass consumer market, you'd like to
> try to accommodate as many people as you can.
>
>
>
> Sichon Domrongchai (I'll be a native Bostonian soon....burrrr!)
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Online Portfolio: http://members.aol.com/sichondana
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:35:04 -0800
From: "michael@net-make.com" <webmaster@net-make.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

At 04:13 PM 1/9/98 -0600, Richard Bondi wrote:
>
>It'll only work for Navigator 4+, and it may not work on MSIE 4 -- it
>certainly won't work on MSIE3.
>RB

- --------------------------
Hi Richard -

Now that I've had more time to test it, it does work in Nav4+ and IE4+.
Unfortunately it won't work on lower-generation browsers due to the
window.location.replace

also, I noticed an error on my part in the original posting of the code.

for testing purposes, remove the line:
document.styleSheets[0].disabled = (screen.colorDepth < 8);

this is relevant to my code for the entire HTML doc (on my machines), but
not for simply inserting the javascript for testing.

can anyone test this on a Mac?
(it shouldn't matter, since its in javascript, but I don't have any
experience with Macs)

thanks again!
___________________________
mailto:webmaster@net-make.com
http://www.net-make.com/
```````````````````````````
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:20:15 +0100
From: Andrea di Varmo <sinetica@mailbox.nauta.it>
Subject: css and javascript on steroids

have you seen the netscape help files? there is an incredible amount of
information for coders in there... I spent half an hour trying to figure
out how it was put togehter but couldn't help. you can get some usefulf
tricks for your pages, though, like the find option and autogenerating files.

this leads me to my second thought. think about c|net and its databease
generated pages. a year ago there wasn't computers.com but now, even if you
browse old pages the link appear on the left column after news.com etc.
this thanks to databases. I was wondering if, using css and javascript
together, it could be possible to achieve the same effect.

suppose you have a .css file that is read every time a page from your site
is loaded and this automagically update you topic index everytime (what a
relief that should be!). has anyone ever tried it? does anyone have a
"cut'n'paste" version for us mortals to borrow?

I wait for your comments
Andrea di Varmo

* Direttore responsabile Friuli on line - http://fol.nauta.it/
(testata giornalistica con i supplementi Vita d@ nauta e libernauta)
* c/o Sinetica group - http://www.sinetica.it
Via Paluzza 15, 33100 Udine Italy
Fax ++39 432 481038 Tel ++39 432 481028
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:13:49 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: Re: New H5

High Five is undergoing a "passing of the torch" so to speak, With Chris
Schmitt leaving for other endeavors and Kevin Travers stepping in. It is
no surprise that things might seem a bit unorganized and chaotic during
the transition, but I'm sure H5 will continue to evolve and excel with
the medium. As a long time H5 watcher I'm looking forward to the new
look, and I'm sure all the problems with the site and the babble list
will get ironed out.

Also see Kevin's informative intro in babble #119, a lot of peoples
questions about H5/babble are answered there.

Good luck Kevin!

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive
http://www.meniscusdesign.com

> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:17:02 -0500
> From: Ryan Ferguson <ryan@webworkx.com>
> Subject: New H5
>
> Has anyone else noticed a precipitous drop in the quality of H5 this month?
>
> (avoiding tomatoes)
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 18:28:39 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: javascript help please

At 11:52 AM 1/9/98 -0400, Matt Snow wrote:
[snip]
>I want to have a user click on an imagemap of Maine and have the town
>they clicked on be entered into a hidden form field, then, with other
>selected criteria, have the (submit) button search a database.
>Can javascript take an imagemap and put the chosen coordinate in a hidden
>field?
[snip]

I've posted a demo of a page that, I believe, does what you're interested
in. It enters the city name passed from the image map area's onClick event
handler into a hidden field and then pops up an alert to tell you the city
name that would be searched if there was an ACTION set for the form. You
can get rid of the alert, and uncomment the submit() call to the form, and
it should work fine. The URL is:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/maineMap.html

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:27:40 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: re: looking for site

Paul,

Re: your question on the babble list, I don't know the site myself,
but if no one else mails it to you why don't you check your browser's
history list? If you've been to that site in the last two weeks your
browser should remember the address. If you have Netscape press Ctrl+H
(or look for history under the Window or Communicator menu) while
Netscape is running to bring up your history list. Sites are listed by
date visited.

If you have Internet Explorer click the history icon in the toolbar
(looks like a sundial in IE 4.0). Sites are again listed by date in
nested forms. Good Luck, sounds like a cool site.

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive
http://www.meniscusdesign.com
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------------------------------

Date: Sam, 10 Jan 98 01:25:39 -0000
From: ckirsch <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...

Thema: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
gesendet: 08.01.1998 22:30 Uhr
An: babble@highfive.com

Hey,

I am working as a web designer for my own company for about a year.
I am using HTML generators and do a lot of hand coding,too. Last year, a lot of new tools just appeared on my desktop, beginning with ( - consumer - ) tools like Homepage or Pagemill.
Than I got my fingers on Fusion, that impressed me because of its abilities to do really good positioning work by using a grid. Now I am evaluation Cyberstudio, the best tool I ever used. A lot of people are talking about Dreamweaver. The hell: I don´t have time to test out every tool for myself, so the question is: Is it worth it to try Dreamweaver instead of Cyberstudio?
I would be really glad about some founded information!

Thanx Chris

Christian Kirschniak "Life is too short to drink cheap beer..."
_________________________________________________________________________
Email: carpenoctem@geocities.com HP: http://geocities.datacellar.net/paris/metro/9140/index.html (private)
Business: ck@dsein.com HP http://www.dsein.com
S-Mail: Albblickstrasse 5, 72411 Bodelshausen, Germany

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

Erik Wurzer wrote:
>
> Okay, here's a question for all you intrepid designers out there... since
> you have no way of knowing what resolution the viewer's screen will be at,
> how do you determine what you are going to use for a basis of layout? If you
> assume people are viewing at 640x480 (the minimum) it creates a very large,
> and often unattractive right margin if someone views it at 600 x 800 (or
> even greater). If you just put everything within one large surrounding
> table, and center it, you don't end up with proper margins on either side,
> comprimising the design. However, this to me seems to be the best solution I
> have so far.
> I know that the web has it's own design problems that in print you never
> see... I'm just wondering how people are dealing with it. It seems most
> sites cater to the 640 x 480 crowd, but then again, how many site are really
> well done?
> Let me know your opinions, if you'd please.
>
> - Erik Wurzer

Well, i have faced, and i am sure many others have faced, the same
problem. what i do in this situation is i use java script to open a new
window to the dimensions that i want. that way, the design is not
compromised at all.

Luis Cota
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:55:45 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: TECH: javascript help please

Well, I've done a little cross-browser testing of that JS/image map thing
I posted, and it's gonna cause problems in either of the 3.0 browsers,
and possibly IE 4 (haven't checked that one yet). An alternate suggestion
that doesn't involve JavaScript would be to use image map area HREFs like
this:

<bigger> <<AREA SHAPE = "rect"

COORDS = "0, 101, 100, 200"

HREF = "search.cgi?city=bay+harbor">

</bigger>

This would pass the city name to some CGI program as a parameter called
city, and all you would have to do is change the parameter for each image
map area.

Matt,

I think I'd need to know more exactly what you're looking for to better
be able to answer your question. If you are still having trouble and
would like, mail me off list and I'll see how I can help.

- - Porter

At 06:28 PM 1/9/98 -0500, Porter Glendinning wrote:

>At 11:52 AM 1/9/98 -0400, Matt Snow wrote:

>[snip]

>>I want to have a user click on an imagemap of Maine and have the town

>>they clicked on be entered into a hidden form field, then, with other

>>selected criteria, have the (submit) button search a database.

>>Can javascript take an imagemap and put the chosen coordinate in a
hidden

>>field?

>[snip]

>I've posted a demo of a page that, I believe, does what you're
interested

>in.

[snip]

> http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/maineMap.html

[snip]

+--------------------------+--------------------------+

| Porter Glendinning | Century Computing, Inc. |

| WWW Developer | 8101 Sandy Spring Rd. |

| | Laurel, MD 20707 |

| http://www.cen.com | T: 301-953-3330 |

| pglendinning@cen.com | F: 301-953-2368 |

+--------------------------+--------------------------+
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End of babble-digest V1 #120
****************************

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