Babble v1 121

babble-digest Saturday, January 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 121

In this issue:
Re: A city web site - could you give me an example?
Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
Re: vector graphics & the web
Re: designing for screen resolutions
Frames & Returning to non frame pages
Re: css and javascript on steroids = XSSI !!
Re: Cookies
Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
Re: Frames & Returning to non frame pages
Re: designing for screen resolutions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:53:15 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: Re: A city web site - could you give me an example?

Melbourne, the most liveable city (actually voted to be..) - (actually
biassed!)
http://www.melbourne.org

>
> Hi Babblers!
>
> We're about to start a big project, a web site for a town that will
> contain all sorts of info for tourists: history, culture, monuments,
> leisure, maps and so on.
>
> Before starting the design process, I'd like to see some well-made
> sites of the same kind. If you know a good site or have designed one,
> I'd like to see how it looks - structure, design, facilities.
> Of course, I've visited some sites myself, but they were rather
> mediocre.
>
> Thanks,
> Armand.
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:52:01 -0800
From: "michael@net-make.com" <webmaster@net-make.com>
Subject: Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...

At 01:25 AM 1/10/98 -0000, ckirsch wrote:
>I don´t have time to test out every tool for myself, so the question is:
Is it worth it to try Dreamweaver instead of Cyberstudio?
>I would be really glad about some founded information!

- ------------------

Hi CKirsch -

It may be worth d/l and trying Dreamweaver, but here's the thing:
I've heard the final price will be in the $300 - $500 range for it - thats
rediculous. Yes you can create DHTML, CSS and Javascript on the fly, but is
that worth the price?

___________________________
mailto:webmaster@net-make.com
http://www.net-make.com/
```````````````````````````
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:30:13 +1100
From: Richard McLean <vorple@n130.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: vector graphics & the web

> I use PS3, and it can very much "handle" the EPS file (it opens it), it's
> just that the file, when opened, is very aliased. What site can I
> download ScreenReady from? It would be very useful.

Hmmm...I'm not sure what version of Illustrator you are using (I'm not sure
it makes that much difference) but rather than using EPS and opening it
with Photoshop, just drag and drop from Ill to PS. A dialog box will come
up with options to place as pixels or paths, and anti-aliased or not.

The best option is to resize the Illustrator elements so they drop into PS
at the correct size. Then they will look great! I've done this with PS3 &
Ill 6, PS3 & Ill 7, and PS4 & Ill 7. The only cavaet is that PS3 doesn't
support stroked text, so you have to convert to paths to retain it.

kind regards,
Richard McLean

Life would be so much easier with a soundtrack.

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:31:45 -0800
From: Ben Gilbert <beg1@axe.humboldt.edu>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

> Let me know your opinions, if you'd please.

I think this whole discussion relates back to who you are trying to design
for. If it is the general public, I think 640x480 is your best bet
(changing monitor settings can be daunting for some). If you are trying to
appeal to designers and non-newbies 800x600 would probably be best. The
idea Michael had earlier seems to work well, it was also featured at a site
called Cut-And-Paste JavaScript
(http://www.infohiway.com/javascript/indexf.htm) a couple months back, the
script dubbed the "Ultimate Browser Survey" did a lot of stuff like that.
Although we must realize too that the script won't be readable by most
newbie browsers (<NS 3.0) so it wouldn't work without a default towards the
safe side of 640x480.

Secondly (or maybe thirdly) note should be given to printable area, if you
think your audience may eventually want to print something out. Some people
(Yale Style Manual folks) claim 535 pixels is the maximum dimension for the
page layout because that is the widest table that will print on standard
letter size or A4 paper. Just a thought.

- -Ben

_________________________________________________________________________
Benjamin E. Gilbert ^ I have no special talents,
beg1@axe.humboldt.edu ^ I am only passionately curious.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~beg1/ ^ -Einstein
(707) 826-7670 ^

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:51:26 +1100
From: Marcus Barczak <mjb@iconsult.com.au>
Subject: Frames & Returning to non frame pages

Babblers,

I'm currently developing an intranet application for one of our clients and
have run into a problem. In the past i've steered clear of frames but this
job has actually called for their usage. The problem i'm having is setting
up a link within a frame that would ultimately return to the top level page
which is frameless. If I just use a standard link in the frame, it
presents the top level content in the small navigation frame I have at the
bottom.

Hopefully, that makes some sense :) Does anyknow know how to get out of
this crazy frame ?

Cheers,
Marcus
- --- ---
Marcus Barczak <mjb@iconsult.com.au>
iConsult Pty Ltd
http://www.iconsult.com.au/
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:22:25 +1300
From: Mark Zeman <zeman@morse.co.nz>
Subject: Re: css and javascript on steroids = XSSI !!

Hi all,

>suppose you have a .css file that is read every time a page from your site
>is loaded and this automagically update you topic index everytime (what a
>relief that should be!). has anyone ever tried it? does anyone have a
>"cut'n'paste" version for us mortals to borrow?

There's an even simpler option than this. Just use SSI or XSSI (extended
server-side include), it comes standard with most web servers (Apache,
Webstar ect.. just add .shtml) and provides a simple mechanism to serve
dynamic pages.

All it takes is a simple tag such as,

and you can embed one page within another, cut 'n' pasting your way to a
dynamic site where navigation and other elements can be updated from one
page.

>From there you can create "if, then, else" structures to test which page
your in, and then change the look and feel of the navigation!!!

This is how hotwired publish their sites, the potential is huge... this is
a simple system that we should all adopt today !!!

For further info:

Webmonkey: design: Building a Better Monkey
http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/97/45/index0a.html

Using XSSI Variables
http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/html/97/36/index1a.html?collection=backend

XSSI Library
http://www.omsi.edu/~rosso/xssi/

NCSA HTTPd Tutorial: Server Side Includes (SSI)
http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs/tutorials/includes.html

Cheers,
Mark Zeman

Director/Designer

........

Morse Media - design for new media
http://www.morse.co.nz

ph 64 4 499 2505
fax 64 4 499 2504

PGP fingerprint: 91E0 691A 32C4 66D9 C46A 2088 7981 6FD8 2671 73CE

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:24:07 -0700
From: "Ray Evans" <raye@junctionnet.com>
Subject: Re: Cookies

I do a lot of database/web programming using ASP(Active Server Pages), and
it's functionality relies on using cookies to maintain state throughout a
users visit to the site.

They are temporary cookies, very non-intrusive.

Using them allows me to know wether a user is properly logged into the site
(which is a secured extranet), and then process a desired action (such as
send them to a login page, or load a requested page).

I have also used cookies to store a users ID & password on their machine,
so they can skip the login (removed it though, since there wasn't a way to
be certain that the individual surfing on the client machine was who the
cookie was intended)

As far as intrusive uses, it is my understanding that cookies in themselves
can't be used to collect e-mail addresses etc, unless the user voluntarily
offers their address and it could then be written to their machine as a
cookie. Even after that, the only machine that can open the cookie is the
original domain/server that wrote it (I may be wrong here)

As far as a site knowing who I am when I return, they only know that
because I volunteered the information in the first place. My own fault. But
I like the functionality that many of those sites provide (custom content,
etc)

There is a lot of information regarding the use (and possible misuse) of
cookies in a microsoft ASP listserv archive located at
http://microsoft.ease.lsoft.com/archives/activeserverpages.html

Regards,
Ray

- ----------
From: Wendy Clark <clark@portland.com>
To: babble@highfive.com; producer@secretsites.com
Subject: Cookies
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 9:30 AM

- - Where are good places for specifics about cookies? (how they work, how
to implement them, etc.) I've already visited Netscape's documentation at
<http://home.netscape.com/newsref/std/cookie_spec.html>. Are there others
you know of?

- - What are the best and/or worst uses of cookies that you've seen?
Examples might include shopping carts and email address collection.

- - What are your opinions on the use of cookies? Do you feel it's an
invasion of privacy or do you like that some sites recognize you when you
return? Do you set your browser to warn you before accepting a cookie? Do
you use cookies on your sites?

And lastly... Got milk?
___________________________
Wendy Clark
New Media Development Group
http://www.nmdg.com
clark@portland.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:31:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...

the mighty "tools of the trade" wars continue.

notably.. i got my hands on dreamweaver this week.. to say the least it
was a different experience from my traditional use of homesite 3.0
(which i SWEAR by for good ole fashioned html busting, for those that know
html fluently)

i would say from previous experience with other programs that the
"traditional print graphic artist" used in the past, Dreaweaver most
closely imitates the positioning abilities.. without having <HTML> in your
face all day.

to me, in the end, i like seeing my code, and knowing *specifically* whats
going on. but on the other hand, this program has it ups for people that
may not have the same knowledge in depth, but want to produce www geared
designs.

it all comes down to how much you know, if youre not comfy with html, use
a whizzy whig, and Dreamweaver is very nice (VERY). otherwise stick to
what you know (homesite 3.0)

the only downside is that the proggy (dw) costs 300$us :| heh. go figure.

i hope this may help someone.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On 10 xxx -1, ckirsch wrote:

> Thema: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
> gesendet: 08.01.1998 22:30 Uhr
> An: babble@highfive.com
>
> Hey,
>
> I am working as a web designer for my own company for about a year.
> I am using HTML generators and do a lot of hand coding,too. Last year, a lot of new tools just appeared on my desktop, beginning with ( - consumer - ) tools like Homepage or Pagemill.
> Than I got my fingers on Fusion, that impressed me because of its abilities to do really good positioning work by using a grid. Now I am evaluation Cyberstudio, the best tool I ever used. A lot of people are talking about Dreamweaver. The hell: I don´t have time to test out every tool for myself, so the question is: Is it worth it to try Dreamweaver instead of Cyberstudio?
> I would be really glad about some founded information!
>
> Thanx Chris
>
>
> Christian Kirschniak "Life is too short to drink cheap beer..."
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Email: carpenoctem@geocities.com HP: http://geocities.datacellar.net/paris/metro/9140/index.html (private)
> Business: ck@dsein.com HP http://www.dsein.com
> S-Mail: Albblickstrasse 5, 72411 Bodelshausen, Germany
>
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>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:58:13 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: Re: Frames & Returning to non frame pages

target=_top

At 04:51 PM 1/10/98 +1100, Marcus Barczak wrote:
>Babblers,
>
>I'm currently developing an intranet application for one of our clients and
>have run into a problem. In the past i've steered clear of frames but this
>job has actually called for their usage. The problem i'm having is setting
>up a link within a frame that would ultimately return to the top level page
>which is frameless. If I just use a standard link in the frame, it
>presents the top level content in the small navigation frame I have at the
>bottom.
>
>Hopefully, that makes some sense :) Does anyknow know how to get out of
>this crazy frame ?
>
>Cheers,
>Marcus
>--- ---
>Marcus Barczak <mjb@iconsult.com.au>
>iConsult Pty Ltd
>http://www.iconsult.com.au/
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
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>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:17:55 EST
From: Erik 240 <Erik240@aol.com>
Subject: Re: designing for screen resolutions

Everyone !

Thanks for your input on my initial question... it confirmed some of my
fears; namely that there is just not a good way to deal with it properly.
(at least, not without doing several versions of each page) I suppose the
starting point for me now is the realization the web is not print. The
web will never be print. But the web, in a lot of ways, can be better
then print.
Although I don't have a professional design background, I've been
hacking away (and getting progressivly better) since 1989. I've always
had some freelance customers, and my new interest in the web comes from
one of them asking me to do a site. They figure that since I can do thier
menu's, business cards, advertisments, etc... you get the idea. :-) I'm
just glad I've been thinking about it for a long time, or I'd really be
up a creek. At least I've already got a basic idea of how HTML works.
Finally, in the end, I think I've just decided to design for 640 x
480, and then throw everything in one big encompasing frame, and center
that. This way, it won't appear with that horrible giantic right margin
on larger screens. It even shows up that way on sites like "hotbot" if
you open your browser all the way at even 800x600. Hmmm...
Thanks again

- -- Erik
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End of babble-digest V1 #121
****************************

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