Babble v1 132

babble-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 132

In this issue:
Re: what the company wants
whatnoresearch/dividing what is corporateandcool
Re: Pre-loading images
this is not my beautiful wife (or: we're searching for metaphor)
Just saying hello !! I'm new!
Netobjects
Re: what the company wants
Re: Pre-loading images
Re: what direction?
Toolbar agony

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:07:40 +0000
From: "Christian Kirschniak" <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: what the company wants

The usual way I solve this problem is to use frames like a border for the
"content" page. If you fill the border-frames with a company-friendly
background and keep the content window with a fixed size, you will have one
of the simplest solutions for the problem.

Your manager will see the company logo (or whatever background you choose)
instead of a empty area. The other (more time consuming) way in my opinion
is to design a second layout for 800x600 and a into-page that asks the user
which resolution he uses. (You can set a cookie than and do this only the
first time one enters the page)
Good Luck...
Christian Kirschniak

Hey: I was just finishing the first framework for the following site:
<http://www.dsein.com/carpenoctem>. I would like to hear some comments, even
if the content is in German - this is a design list, isn´t it?
___________________________________________________
E-Mail: <ck@dsein.com> WWW: <http://www.dsein.com>
Private: <carpenoctem@geocities.com> WWW:
<http://www.dsein.com/carpenoctem>
Phone: +49 7071 440946 Cellular: +49 172 7613743
Snail: Albblickstrasse 5 72411 Bodelshausen Germany

- ----------
>From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
>To: babble@verso.com
>Subject: what the company wants
>Date: Mit, 14. Jan 1998 8:35 Uhr
>

>Hello babble...
>
>new subscriber here.
>I am currently employed as an 'internet editor' for a broadcasting
>company. 'Internet Editor' is a vague term for 'we need someone who knows
>about bit about the internet, can write, has a journalistic background,
>can design 'a little' and do graphics as well because we're not going to
>invest in a real designer.' I fitted the description perfectly.
>
>Although the company still hasn't made up their minds as to
>who exactly is going to redesign their new web site, I've just
>gone ahead with it and presented them with a simple but
>efficient plan. I carefully desgined to the lowest common
>denominator (640x480, etc) and showed my immediate boss what
>I had done. 'Why does that curve not go all the way down?'
>he asked. I told him I had designed for 640 x 480 and it
>would look perfect on that, slighly less than perfect on 800 x 600
>or larger.
>
>'Oh, you'll have to change that. The head of the company has a huge
>monitor and he won't understand why he should adjust his browser.'
>
>Aargh... you think you try and please the majority of people..
>instead you have to comply to one man's huge monitor/small brain. ;-)
>
>I was just wondering if anybody else had dealth with this problem
>and what they did about it. Contact me and I'll give you
>an URL if necessary.
>
>thanks,
>
>Caroline (Von B) van Oosten de Boer
>http://www.gavinfriday.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:08:45 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: whatnoresearch/dividing what is corporateandcool

In message <199801141000.LAA08047@ns.supra-net.net>, Christian
Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com> writes
>The usual way I solve this problem is to use frames like a border for the
>"content" page. If you fill the border-frames with a company-friendly
>background and keep the content window with a fixed size, you will have one
>of the simplest solutions for the problem.
>
>Your manager will see the company logo (or whatever background you choose)
>instead of a empty area. The other (more time consuming) way in my opinion
>is to design a second layout for 800x600 and a into-page that asks the user
>which resolution he uses. (You can set a cookie than and do this only the
>first time one enters the page)
>
>Hey: I was just finishing the first framework for the following site:
><http://www.dsein.com/carpenoctem>. I would like to hear some comments, even
>if the content is in German - this is a design list, isnt it?
>
>----------
>>From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
>>To: babble@verso.com
>I had designed for 640 x 480 and it
>>would look perfect on that, slighly less than perfect on 800 x 600
>>or larger.
>>
>>'Oh, you'll have to change that. The head of the company has a huge
>>monitor and he won't understand why he should adjust his browser.'

hi kids
yeah i use a similar technique (www.phw.co.uk/test.html). because both browsers,
everything from ie3 nav2 up support wildcards in frame specification, it's also
a useful workaround to some tabling problems. well, only some....

the other thing worth doing is to design slightly oversized 640-480 graphics
which then look acceptably undersized in a higher res. but i think that *all*
websites have to work in 640. right now, nav3 640 with 256 colors is lowest
common denominator, and all the corporate work i do is optimised for that.

at the end of the day Caroline, it might be worth your while putting a paper
together on common setups of users. do you know who your target audience is? (if
not, you should do. no really, you should). do a brief needs assessment: when
you present your work to the boss, give him the paper.

do this before you do **any** work. otherwise, it'll catch up with you later.
this kind of relates to a more general point i wanted to put to the list. at the
moment, as a community designers seem more than a little too happy to rely on
RFPs and bells/whistles to massage clients. i've read very little about work
agencies invest in to really consider clients. clients, bear in mind, does not
mean the guy/gal paying the bill. client is the kid who looks at the site.
merely implementing workarounds/producing multiple site versions isn't enough.

when was the last time anyone put together a focus group? perhaps i'm speaking
from a perspective which casts unfair aspersions on the rest of the list. i
wonder how much work has been done, what research methodolgies are used, and so
on. (we did some NLP based focus group work last summer. very rewarding, but
wished i had the time to do more).

any constructive feedback would be lapped up hungrily, but i'm not really
interested in rereading NOP/Gallup generalisms. what i'm concentrating on here
is jumping through the specific hoops, not the ones we makes "rules" out of. (i
know i might seem to be being difficult).

and i also accept that primarily this isn't done because of pressures from the
people with the money. nevertheless,

Christian, i had a look at the work you mention, albeit brief: really nice pics,
i do like a lot. the only thing that spoils it for me is the pic
credits/copyright signs, which don't sit especially well with the look and feel.
perhaps use graphics? just a thought.

while i have my soapbox polished, there is a second issue which people may find
interesting. i was doing my browsing chores late last night and stumbled upon
levi jeans' web effort. interestingly, they divide their content into bland
corporate form+content @ www.levistrauss.com and value added heaps o' fun @
www.levi.com.

certainly one way of addressing the issue of "the customer want facts and
figures, the visitor wants anything but"

again i **love** feedback. in the biblical sense.

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:16:36 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: Pre-loading images

Hi David,

The answer to both is yes. People do preload into a single pixel (though
I have heard of problems this has caused with it showing a little). And
you can preload the images in a previous page (as long as you know where
the previous page is ;). At galleries this is quite impressive since by
the time the person has read the blurb below the photo, the next image
has been cached. To preload the images using JavaScript you can use the
same code that many use for preloading images for the rollovers.

e.g.

<bigger>if (document.images) {

img1 = new Image(); img1.src = "imgname.gif";

img2 = new Image(); img2.src = "tech2.gif";

</bigger>...

}

At least I think that that's correct.

Gary.

At 10:25 PM 1/13/98 +0000, David Leader wrote:

>I tried to post this at the end of last year, but it somehow got lost.

>I have some questions that are peripheral to design - that is
preloading

>images so that your audience doesn't go away while your complex page
loads.

>Q1. Do people use preloading into single pixel size on a waiting page,
or

>is there a smarter javascript way of doing this.

>Q2. What about Rollover images? Can one preload them on a previous page
and

>is it worth it.

>Answers or pointers to relevant sites would be appreciated.

>David Leader

>http://www.laceguild.demon.co.uk

>http://www.ski-glasgow.demon.co.uk

>http://www.biochem.gla.ac.uk/BMB.html

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Enterprise Solutions

WebMaster & Information Architect :)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:31:17 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: this is not my beautiful wife (or: we're searching for metaphor)

In message <199801131934.OAA12691@mail.gwi.net>, Matt Snow
<snow@portland.com> writes
>Where is the web headed? ha ha ha ha....no, really?
>What I mean is that I am a multimedia designer, but what does that mean
>now? What skills are you guys trying to gain and still feel like an
>artist/designer? I am not a good programmer, but do I have to become one?
>Can you see your own future?

hi matt
please excuse the police squad-type subject line. an evil jerry (you know, when
jerry mouse gets tempted to attack tom) told me to do it. i blame heavy metal,
or the parents.

you touch on a lot of interesting issues, i've reposted your mail to a number of
friends who work in the industry.

<mytwocentsworth="OTT" spacing="center as ever">
i think most of the people i've discussed the subject with (when a silence at
the dinner party erupts, it's a pretty safe banker) still feel essentially
creative. but i think your question is in part based on a belief in the old
art/science dichotomy, a model which i thought we'd put to rest.

questions of this type always remind me of a lot of the stuff written about
early cinema: that essentially, it was a combination of two powerful existing
media (radio and stage) but as such, had no language to call its own.

when directors did try something new, audiences tended to get confused (i assume
everyone is aware of the apocryphal tale about a cut from a man's sobbing face
to an image of a house burning: most of the ppl who saw this didn't understand
that there was a connection to be made).

right now, i think that the web is in a similar state of flux. without an
interpretive language, users can only follow conventions dragged from places
they understand.

so we do obey print conventions primarily, occasionally dipping into tv/radio
(this is usually what is needed to be described as innovative at the moment).

and meanwhile, there is this constant background chatter of "html is not a
designer's tool" and "standards, gimme standards."

neither of these are really relevant: for me, the key point is that right now,
the web hasn't developed a strong enough grammar of understanding of its own
(maybe, possibly, solely, with the exception of banner ads- not especially
highbrow now are they?).

i'm currently putting a paper together on the subject based on some research i
did last year, so hopefully within the next few weeks, i can elaborate with more
confidence.

i know, you haven't had your morning coffee, and can't be bothered with this.
but hey, it's..... almost the weekend.
</mytwocentsworth="OTT">

be good

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:11:38 +1100
From: Jim Antonopoulos <jimako@netcore.com.au>
Subject: Just saying hello !! I'm new!

Just a hello to alll the listees - I'm from Melbourne, Australia.
Keep on Babbling..!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:11:39 -0500
From: Chris_Page@bestsoftware.com
Subject: Netobjects

I've been using NetObjects for a while now. I love it. You're right, the
code is kind of funky, but I'm sure as they upgrade the product it will get
better. I can see it being a problem if you have several people working on
a site, or are going to hand over a designed site to someone to maintain
it. But, its great for things like designing several comps quickly, etc. I
have the connector but I haven't installed it. I'd love to know how well
the connector works. The URL to get the connector is
http://193.164.160.162/riga

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:38:56 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Netobjects
Hello..
Is there anyone out there using NetObjects fusion?
I understand this application writes unnecessary code but it really has
some
awesome features and it is so easy to use!
We are trying to get Netobjects to connect to a Lotus Domino server with a
connector called RIGA and we are having some trouble.. has anyone attempted
to do this?
thanks in advance.
jorge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:30:07 +0100
From: "Armand Dijcks" <armand.dijcks@compaq.com>
Subject: Re: what the company wants

>Aargh... you think you try and please the majority of people..
>instead you have to comply to one man's huge monitor/small brain. ;-)

Caroline,

I can see your point... but on the other hand, making your design look good
for all sorts of different screen resolutions, browser versions etc. is one
of the things that makes web design fun (at least for me).

You could use frames or tables to make position the elements of your page in
such a way that it looks consitent for different window sizes. Take a look
at the Eyecandy site for example to see how this works (www.eyecandy.org)

Another, in my personal opinion, less elegant solution is making your site
open up in a second, non-resizeable browser window. Two excellent sites
using this technique are www.the-eclectica.com and www.ideo.com

Armand
(another new subscriber)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 14:41:17 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-loading images

>e.g.
>if (document.images) {
>img1 = new Image(); img1.src = "imgname.gif";
>img2 = new Image(); img2.src = "tech2.gif";
>...
>}
>
>
>At least I think that that's correct.

This is correct, but you can add the width and height attributes like
this ...

img1 = new Image(72,48)

the same as you do in the IMG SRC part of the HTML to aid page rendering
speed.

Joe

W e b P a g e D e s i g n f o r D e s i g n e r s
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:39:13 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: Re: what direction?

Matt Snow axed:

> Where is the web headed? ha ha ha ha....no, really?

As a commercial outlet, there are two things that any Web site must
provide in order to succeed; information and entertainment. You can also
attempt to provide one or the other alone, but that will limit your
audience in the long run and spell ruin for your site, and I stress
this, commercially. If you could care less about commercial success, do
whatever you want to do.
The Web is headed for the toilet. The Web as it is today will look like
tomorrow's Web, but it will rely less on "standards" because Netscape
will be sold to 3Com, all browsers will be free, competition will spur
continued multimedia advances (because the public understands TV and
putting in URLs is awkward and difficult) and the Web will become the
fifth network, competing for screen time with NBC, ABC et al. HTML will
give way to XML, plug-ins will give way to Java/ActiveX applets, someone
smart will invent "the third browser" that reads all HTML/XML no matter
if it is standardized by the W3C or invented by Netscape or Microsoft
and sell it in bulk to cable operators and ISPs who'll distribute it to
their subscribers with their own company name attached.

Or maybe not.

> What I mean is that I am a multimedia designer, but what does that mean
> now? What skills are you guys trying to gain and still feel like an
> artist/designer? I am not a good programmer, but do I have to become one?
> Why?

You will have to develop programming skills, but not become a
programmer. You will need to make pages "active", meaning interactive,
not any reference to a Microsoft marketing blitz. Interactivity means
the page reacts to viewer input. It doesn't just sit there. That's what
print is for. We aren't competing with print. Print is still the only
easily transporatable, cheap and widely available method of distributing
information. This isn't print. Structuring a page with tables and CSS
and so on is all well and good. You can make it look fabulous and
beautiful and easy to read and navigate and no one will come. No one had
broken the mold of old media in this medium. We are still using existing
models to form what we make. The challenge is to find the new paradigm
that seems "natural". Turning a page, changing a channel, pushing a
button are all integrated into our psyche. Every page you hit has a new
interface. If you use the same interface as someone else, you are
accused of being unimaginative or thieving. None of that answers the
question, of course. I'm rambling.

I know I must learn and *know* JavaScript. It is on the verge of
standardization and is now supported in both major browsers almost
identically. Java is great but people hate it. It must be faster and
smaller and worthwhile. So far, it hasn't been.

I also know that Microsoft is making their platform extremely attractive
to clients I speak with because they provide a complete set of tools,
they leverage their huge built-in base of Windows and Office users and
the corporate world loves and respects them. The clients want to use
FrontPage because after I'm gone they believe they will be able to
easily manipulate and update my designs. They are wrong, of course, and
I tell them so but that doesn't matter. ASP pages make Web-enabling
applications such as databases extremely simple. Microsoft gives away
thier browser, and it's a very good product. Swallow hard, kids. MS is
here for the long haul. Is Netscape?

> Can you see your own future?
> If so, and you really wanted to be a designer, what happened? Are you
> still a designer, or did you have to evolve into something completely
> different?
> Why did you evolve? In order to get paid, or that there was no such thing
> as web design?

There *is* such a thing as Web design, and it's based on limitations. In
other arenas of design, you can use pretty much whatever color you want.
You can use an image that covers the whole page (print) or screen (TV,
CD-ROM). You can design an interface that sits anywhere and looks like
anything regardless of texture or color or size (Kai's various navs) and
you can use any font face, and you know that whoever views that thing
will see the same thing. It will look just as you designed it. In Web
design, you must take into account the browser platform (WebTV?) and the
version of the viewer and what they can and can't interpret (Javascript?
Javascript 1.1? CSS? HTML3? HTML4?). You must realize that not all
monitors present the information at the same pixel depth or color depth
(480X640? 600X800? 1000X1200? 256colors? 64,000? 32,000,000?) and that
the PC does not present color saturation at the same level as the Mac.
And that some users must still use Lynx which sees no images at all. And
that separate browsers interpret "standards" differently (when is an
absolute frame measurement not an absolute frame measurement? When it
appears in Netscape!). And does the user have the font you designed for,
and did you take into account that a PC presents a 12-point font larger
than a Mac? And so on. Yes, there is Web design. The challenge is using
your talents to make the best looking site you can, then breaking it and
not crying when you look at it on a Mac using IE3 and realize it looks
like crap.

An advantage in my case was that I had no design background. I did not
come into this with preconceptions. I do not expect perfection because I
know I will never achieve it given all those factors working against me.
I cannot see my own future because I do not control it. I elected to do
this against my better judgment. I do it because I love it. If you do
anything because you were forced to do it, you'll fail. You'll likely do
a half-assed job because you simply don't care.

Web design is frustrating as hell. You will never be satisfied because
someone out there will write you an email saying "I keep getting errors
on your page. I'm using Netscape 2 on a Sun with a monochrome screen."
And you'll either feel bad about leaving this member of your potential
audience out or say "so what?" Lately, sadly, I'm leaning toward the
latter. Perhaps it's a passing phase...

Sorry about the long post,
Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:31:48 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Toolbar agony

3 post in one day!?
ok, a query for the jscript gurus on the list:
i've built a page end toolbar which includes a pull down menu and a back button.
pulldown script=

<script>
<!--

function buildArray() {
var a = buildArray.arguments;
for (i=0; i<a.length; i++) {
this[i] = a[i];
}
this.length = a.length;
}

var urls = new buildArray("",
"page1.html",
"page2.html",
"page3.html",
"page4.html",
"page5.html",
"page6.html",
"page7.html");

function go(form) {
n = form.choices.selectedIndex;
if (n != 0) {
location.href = urls[n];
}
}

// -->
</script>

so far so good: the html for the pull down goes:

<form>

<select name="choices" onChange="go(this.form)">
<option>Quick Links
<option>Page1
<option>Page2
<option>Page3
<option>Page4
<option>Page5
<option>Page6
<option>Page7
</select>

</form>

this works fine. but, i'm trying to combine this with a back button (this by
itself works fine too) which will sit right next to the pull down box. the
<form> command seems to insert a break no matter what i do: i've managed to
produce a workaround which is OK in ie4, but netscape hates it:

<form>
<select name="choices" onChange="go(this.form)">
<option>Quick Links
<option>Drugs
<option>Cancer
<option>CHD
<option>Mental
<option>Nutrition
<option>Sexual
<option>Smoking
</select>
<INPUT TYPE=image
src="tooler2.gif"
align="top" width="63" height="22"
VALUE="Back" onclick="history.back()" border=0>

</form>

solutions will be rewarded with the promise of my first born child.

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #132
****************************

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