Posted by Michel Pontmercy on November 23, 1997 at 14:12:58:
In Reply to: Santy's Faith posted by LP on November 21, 1997 at 16:59:34:
May I say that I have simply been in adoration of this thread? I've been reading it for some time and wishing we had some sort of way to honor it with a permenant place in the TVC site. The thought you put into it is astounding.
Now then, I don't know if my own thoughts will measure up to what you have been putting forth, but if you don't mind another voice chiming in I'd like to at least add some food for thought.
: because *we do not have enough canon about Santino*. All we have are Armand's *memories*, Khayman's observation, and a few other assorted paragraphs and sentences in the VCs.:
True, but I believe, particularly in instances such as level C characters (don't let the vampires on TVC hear me say that ;) ) those hints and small sentences are meant to carry a heavy load of information. Even with someone as verbal as Lestat, rare do we get real insight into who he is as a man except in a few words here or there which tell us far more than entire chapters ever could. There are many things written in those volumes which are easy to gloss over in one's first read but then leap out from the page once a reread is done. A good example would be anytime Lestat talks about his family, or Louis for that matter.
It's my personal belief that Lestat has an incredible tendency to bullshit. The books are written with what I feel is something of a self-knowing smirk - Lestat knows the real story is "between the lines" (as he teases us about Interview). I think his invitation about Louis' novel is meant for his own as well. We are challenged to find out if we can tell the true story, or if we will just fall for the hype as so many do.
: The reason I said above that Anne doesn't jump around is because going on your argument (which yes, *could* help it, but not prove it) then he saw Akasha's beauty and his old faith in God flared. (Along the lines I'm assuming of vampires always supposing to be beautiful to scorn God.) My proposal is that it was actually his faith in the Mother (not Akasha, but the Mother) which flared.
: Santino might very well have believed in the old legends.
Would he? The coven he created and the rules he thought up all involved a Christian viewpoint. He may have heard rumors about Those Who Must Be Kept but I do not think he would have taken it as a challenge to his beliefs so much as something of academic interest at best.
: He would naturally want to find more about these two legends. Where to learn this? Well, Marius, obviously. However Marius would most likely kill him, and Marius was also a threat to his standing as coven leader. Especially after he made Armand. So Santino had to kill Marius to keep his position safe, but he didn't have to kill Armand.
This strikes me as a chancy bit of planning on Santino's part. Santino only had an outsider's perspective to work from. Marius definately knew something, Armand (assuming he knew about Armand to start with) may or may not have. Why go through the effort to get that close to the best source of information, only to kill him? If Santino's coven had the ability to kill Marius then they also had the ability to simply hold him, since the threat of his death could, in theory, keep him prone. Therefore why trust a months-old fledgling when one could have the source?
: So he tried to get information out of Armand, but he didn't.
Precisely. If the attempt was to get information then Santino handled it like a Keystone Cop. If, as it was pointed out earlier, Santino had the intelligence and strategy to create his coven and enforce his rules throughout Europe then it makes more sense to assume the death of Marius and the pumping of Armand for information were *not* his plans. He intended something else. But what?
: Santino's faith, or following (a hybrid of the two is even better), was with the Mother of the vampires. The King and Queen, whoever was the leader. [..] Santino has heard and seen the rampaging destruction which Akasha has caused to both the humans and the vampires. His heart "shrunken and bruised" by their cries. Santino in no way supports Akasha's purge of the human males. :
This is a large leap, given the information we know. We know that Santino, for a good deal of his life, chose to define himself in terms of God and Satan - so much so that he felt everyone else should as well. Again, this is very Christian, which would not worry overmuch about anything on earth save, perhaps, how it could be looked upon as a sign from above.
We then know he left the coven, we know he spent time with Eric and, by extension, Maharet. And now we see him in Queen of the Damned. To assume that he lept from his faith in God/Satan to the Mother and the Father needs more information. Likewise any conclusions about his feelings regarding Akasha's purge. Would he support it because killing is what vampires do (acting like a plauge on humanity)? Or would he not support it because he had abandoned his belief in that long ago?
: I'm actually curious where Lestat got this observation from (Santy's quote). Santino is the ex-leader of a large coven. I would think he knows how to keep his mental shielding in place. :
And how to manipulate what people thought of him if he so chose. There is not enough canon in the books to suggest this, however Armand's great ability at mental manipulation had to be learned *somewhere*. It would stand to reason he learned it from being in Santino's coven at the very least. And, since Santino groomed him to be leader and "missionary" that it was Santino himself who taught him.
: And I honestly don't think that his mind would have been open to Lestat, since the whole trust thing was probably lacking. So *where* did this paragraph come from?:
Is there a lack of trust between them? Let me put another question into this argument: *why* was Santino there in the first place? In that compound there were two types of people - those who Akasha could not track down (Maharet, Khayman and Eric, Mael and Jesse by extension) and *those who Lestat loved*. I believe Lestat and Marius both make the point that if it was not for everyone's relationship with Lestat they all would have died.
Alright then: Louis and Gabrielle are obvious. Marius too, and since Lestat had been told Marius loved Pandora she was allowed to live too. Armand and Lestat had an adversarial relationship but Lestat in his heart cared for Armand and I think Akasha would have known that, hence Armand lives. Daniel was Armand's fledgling and gains protection there.
What, then, about Santino? He's not old enough to protect himself and he and Maharet don't seem to have a close enough relationship that she could protect him. Moreover he wasn't near Maharet when Akasha started her destruction so he wouldn't be able to hide himself by being in close proximity to her. He and Eric traveled together but Eric needs Maharet's protection and thus could not save him himself.
The other end of the scale - if we look at the chapters of information we have about Santino we would assume that Lestat would hate him. Santino tried to kill Marius (Lestat at the time didn't know of Santino helping Pandora to save him) and was responsible for hurting Armand - someone who held the rank of being beloved of Lestat. We would assume, then, that if anything Akasha would go out of her way to kill him.
But she didn't.
He can't be counted as strong enough to hide and the only others who lived were beloved of Lestat in some fashion.
I think Lestat decieved us with bullshit again. Chapters of subterfuge inwhich somehow, somewhere, Lestat found a reason to like Santino.
From there some conclusions can be drawn, but I'll stop for right now since I know I am getting far into the land of conjecture. :)
Mich