From: Marsha Pallies

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:43 PM

Subject: You Should Start an Atheist Bootcamp

Hello,

As a new Atheist, one of the things I realized is that I have always practiced free thought. My husband and I respected the right of our children to make their own choice. We did not baptize or attend church unless for weddings or funerals. Our intelligence and love toward EVERYONE set a good example for our now grown men.

I am a member of ffrf.org and childrennow.org. I attend to participate in areas where the Church and State need to be separated. When you treat someone like they are evil or stupid, you normally get resistance (human nature). I may be wrong, but it seems that your "Atheism" is a tool for your attack. You mention that you had a rough youth. I know from personal experience that it takes real work to identify the real target of your anger. It's worth examining.....just as Atheists want scientific facts.

Or if you think I am one of the B.S. Atheists, then maybe you can start a Boot Camp to get all of us softies in order.

Lighten up. I wish you well,

Marsha

From: Marsha Pallies

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:31 PM

Subject: New Atheist Again

Hi Muriel,

Since my previous e-mail, I scrolled down to review other e-mail. It's clear that you have really done your homework........I may just be envious of your knowledge...I AM! I was skeptical at a very early age; and since my brother and I were never forced to attend church, I really never gave a "hoot" about the bible.

I was really reacting to your web platform. You provided intelligent answers to your e-mailers, however, when you use belittling phrases like, "your little story" "you're not being objective", etc, a reader will resist and shut down. Instead, stick with your own experience and intelligence without any attack. People spend more time with defense if they feel that they are not respected. example: " why should I take the word of a person who doesn't respect my rights?"

If your intention is to stop the evils of religion as quickly as possible, then at least pretend that you respect people who get involved........An active and content Atheist will attract more Christians. This will display that Atheism works for you. If anger clutters your great answers, then your opponents may will decide that they are perfectly content with their belief system.

If I am not making any sense, it's just that I have soooooo much to learn.

It's great that you are willing to put yourself out there!

Marsha

From: Muriel and John Montgomery

To: Marsha Pallies

Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:27 AM

Subject: Re: New Atheist Again

Hello Marsha,

Thanks for the email. Atheist boot camp eh? That sounds like a WONDERFUL idea! Maybe then some progress might actually be made.

Your complaints of me are not unusual. Most people are offended by my mannor of argumentation. As I see it, someone needs to represent the "other side" of the spectrum. Of course, that's not to say I don't agree with what I write to people, but my supposed "extremeism" needs to have a place on the web as well. I am aware you probably are going to tense up and automatically dismiss what I am about to say, just realise that the content of my words if more important than the mannor with which I present it.

I don't care if people are offended by what I say. I don't care if what I say causes people to become defensive. If my words bother you, then stop reading them.

That being said, here is my reasoning behind it. I like to make an impression on peoples minds. I know I made an impression on your mind, else you would not have emailed me. That little impression that you receive is my message to you about whatever issue I felt you needed to think about more carefully. If I had wasted time thinking about if you would be offended by what I say, then the impression might not have made it to your mind. My goal with the GOA is to speak consistently and logically on issues related to strong atheists, and embarrass incorrect reasoning out of those who want to fight for the other side. Occasionally I face off with people well equiped to argue with me, and it usually turns mean. Whatever it takes to get that impression on their mind.

There are many many sites on the internet that are all about coddling people and saying that everyones opinion is as reasonable as the next persons. Maybe one of these sites would be better suited for you. However, if you ever get tired of the constant "Intolerant of intolerance", you will, as well as everyone else, will come back to the GOA where you can actually get real.

Thanks again for your email, feel free to write anytime!

Muriel Montgomery

mkisling@pressenter.com

From: Gerry and Marsha Pallies

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:31 PM

Subject: New Atheist Again

Hello Muriel & John

Thanks for your response. Show me your power.....include my e-mail on your website. It sounds like I am a good example of a coddled Atheist. Allow others to show me how to get angry.

A Coddled Atheist

Marsha

This email exchange took a strange turn. However I see no problem in fulfilling her wishes to have these emails on the site.

From: "Sweet Heart"

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: i see someone wasn't practicing the golden rule

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:19:10 PDT

Muriel,

God sees everyone as they are, whether we see ourselves as we are. I know myself, because I know god. And I am able to love, because I love god. I am not some sheltered child, I assure you. I'm a surviver from incest and demostic violence. I am a poet, I express myself through my words. Whether you think that way or not. and the way you told that story, i just dont believe it, i think its a lie. no church that i've ever heard of ever spent money on producing a dinner and a play just on downsizing another religion, i just dont believe it. you can have an atheist webpage, there are lots of christian websites out there, why not have one about another religion? I dont really care. Infact, i think its a very interesting, and i'd like to learn more about it. What upset me is a)the lieing about the church, deny it if you wish, but i think it was a lie. b) and the way you trash-talk christians. christians have every right to be here as you do, whether you like the religion or not. you dont like? then choose not to go to church, not to read the bible, and not to visit christian websites, but donot trash the religion.

love,

jennifer

From: "muriel" mkisling@pressenter.com

To: "Sweet Heart"silver_kiss42@hotmail.com

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:48:16 +0000

Jennifer,

First of all, atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is the lack of theism, the realization that all things in the universe need to be proven with facts before you can automatically say where it came from or how long it has been here.

Second of all, you must realize that if you attended a conservative church regularly, that incidents such as the "dinner/play" I attended happen much more than you realize. But believe me, this is far FAR less hateful than what religions did to the nonbelievers in the past. Have you heard of a thing called The Crusades? How about the Spanish Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials? Millions and millions of people were murdered by the Bible pushing religion mongers. Only now do atheists like myself actually have a say, and I certainly am not going to give up my chance to say it. Don't let yourself be ignorant of what actually happens inside the church. Also you assume that I am a sheltered child in your letter, I wont bore you with the details but believe me my life hasn't been a piece of cake either. You mention domestic violence and incest, those are all within the family so I can't help but wonder, is your entire family religious as you are? Perhaps the bible didn't help your family as much as the church says it can.

My page does not trash the religion, it trashes the people who show no acceptance for others such as myself. You would not believe the BS I hear from people daily. Literally Daily! "You stupid bitch you are going to hell" I hear that one almost every day. People like that make me sick to my stomach. You should look around at people today and really listen to how they are hypocritical in almost every way. Any ways, it's been fun blathering on about things I blather on about everyday to deaf ears. Cheerio

Muriel

From: "Sweet Heart" silver_kiss42@hotmail.com

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: Re: i see someone wasn't practicing the golden rule

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:08:16 PDT

Muriel,

Just to let you know, there is no proof at all that there isnt a god! And how did the bible just *appear* and jesus, all the miracles he worked. I attend churche regularly. and i'm in choir and plays and tours all the time, but NONE of them are about downsizing another religion or *belief* like you said that one was, and I just dont believe it. I have been very religious all my life, my mother and my aunt, and my godmother were the ones that took my to church, not my father. He wasnt a very happy person. God was the one that pulled me through my nightmare and saved my life. I would have killed myself a long time ago, had it not been for my faith. Also, i have a question. what actually do you people believe in? empty nothingness? that your soul, your being, just drops off the face of the earth never to be seen again? Dont you want eternal life? To be loved always? Is like a 4,000 page book, documents of hundreds and hundreds of years proof enough to you? just because you cant see Him with your own two eyes, doesnt mean he's not there. Do you believe that we were created my dust and molecules and chemicals mixing together? well, if so, then where did those dust and molecules and chemicals come from? did they just appear as quickly as our souls are to dissapear?

love,

jennifer

From: "muriel" mkisling@pressenter.com

To: "Sweet Heart"silver_kiss42@hotmail.com

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:08:12 +0000

Jennifer,

There is plenty of proof that there is not a god in the Bible itself. All the biblical contradictions within the bible take more and more away from its credibility. If a perfect being such as a "god" wrote the bible, then why does he contradict himself so many times in so many embarrassing ways? If you do not believe this is so just ask me and i'd be very willing to give you numerous examples of the bible contradicting itself.

Evolution disproves the bible as well. You and I came from monkeys and if you don't like that ask the pope himself. Pope John Paul II says:

"For my part, when I received those taking part in your academy's plenary assembly on October 31, 1992, I had the opportunity with regard to Galileo to draw attention to the need of a rigorous hermeneutic for the correct interpretation of the inspired word... Taking into account the state of scientific research at the time as well as of the requirements of theology, the encyclical 'Humani Generis' considered the doctrine of 'evolutionism' a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and in-depth study equal to that of the opposing hypothesis... Today, almost half a century after the publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis... What is to be decided here is the true role of philosophy and, beyond it, of theology. --Truth cannot contradict truth " -Pope John Paul II, October 22 1996

Even the pope does not deny that Darwin's law of evolution is indeed a fact. If you do not know or understand evolution you can simply look it up in a search engine or ask me about it. Everything on the earth and in the universe is billions of years old, not 6000 years. It does not seem quite so unbelievable to think that oxygen and water and plants could be formed after millions and millions of years. The stars themselves prove that creationism is false. It takes billions of years for the light from a star to reach the earth, hence the term "light year". The stars are so far away that we would not even see the light from the stars is the universe was actually 6000 years old. Anyways I could go on for hours about evolution. My point is that if the bible was wrong about how old the universe is, then how credible is anything else the bible says?

In response to your question "Don't you want eternal life?" I would have to say No of course not. Do you have any idea how long "eternal life" is? That is forever, forever is a long long long long long time. What would you do? Go for a walk? Go bowling? You probably cannot imagine how long forever is, let alone a billion years.

I know that my life is a random occurance in the huge randomness of the universe, and I am not going to waste my life away hoping for some imaginary being to save me. I am going to live my life for the here and now and make myself as happy and as successful as I can possibly be because I know this is my one and only chance for life and when its over its over for good. You might think this is depressing but I have a peace with it. I am part of the life on this earth and I strive to keep it a beautiful place where everything and everyone can live in peace. Thats why I fight for acceptance online where I can be heard.

*sigh* well there you have it, maybe I have helped you understand people like myself a little bit more. I don't want you to think I am a bad person, I want you to understand who I really am. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out.

Muriel Kisling

Name: Rick

Website: Rick's Cyber Spot

Referred by: Just Surfed On In

From: Pa

Time: 1998-08-30 19:43:00

Comments: Just wanted to let you know I stopped by and enjoyed your page. I am a Christian and am sure I do not have the words to allow you to see things more clearly but wish I did. Your Noah's Ark Document can be answered for the most part pretty easily but you must allow yourself to accept the answers. I have found it is much easier to believe in creation than the other common theories out there. Those theories are much more far fetched and require more faith to believe. Oh well I just wanted to share some feelings with you and hope you will become more open minded to Christ as He was and is very much alive!

From: "Rick Johnson" rjj915@hotmail.com

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: Ok

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:03:01 PDT

Hi Muriel,

I'd like to communicate with you. Each day we live in faith of so many things why is faith in Christ so difficult? With Noah's ark there are many theories. Science shows that not only did rains come down but water rose from pockets in the earth's crust. This is proven by geology. As they sailed in darkness many animals were in hibernation which caused them to eat much less and digest food very little. With two species in the ark that does not mean two calico cats, two siamese cats etc, offshoots came over time. A process of evolving. With waters rising from below and falling from above at a very hastened pace the flood is easily attainable. There is evidence of the ark's existence as I'm sure you've heard over near Turkey. It has been learned through primitive tribes throughout the world that were in existence during that time that they all share a similar story of a great flood and a man and his boat with animals. These stories are very similar in detail and all similar to the Bible's account of Noah.

Rick Johnson

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 13:56:29 -0500

To: "Rick Johnson" rjj915@hotmail.com

From: Muriel Kisling mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: Re: Ok

Hey Rick,

Faith in Christ is not difficult. In fact I would say that is the most simple explanation to everything, to just say "god did it". To know and understand the ways of science requires years and years of study of biology and astronomy and physics etc. I, personally, think that to believe in anything such as the Bible would be foolish because it is one document without much proof. I am different than you and thats fine! I simply require more facts and more proof than you do. In my readings and in my research, I have concluded that science alone can explain the universe. Not everything has been proven or discovered yet, but I have full confidence in the scientific method to eventually make further discoveries that cannot be denied.

Your little explanation of Noah's Ark merely scraped the surface of the discrepencies against it. You mentioned how the cats they saved "evolved" after the ark incident. You realise that evolution takes millions of years don't you? Not to mention your belief in evolution goes against everything the Bible stands for. Also, even if all the water from the earths pockets, and all the clouds poured every single drop of water onto the surface, there still isnt near enough water to possibly cover mount Everest, the tallest mountain. There simply isnt enough water! The evidence of the ark existing was a hoax, it gained a lot of press coverage at the time but was soon discovered to be a hoax. Wouldn't you think there would be some film coverage showing this "ark" ? How difficult do you think it would be to take a hellicopter over to turkey and show this massive boat (which over a couple of thousand of years would have certainly rotted away). Anyways, the ark story is only one out of hundreds of far fetches fairy tales within the bible.

It's been fun! Cheerio.

Muriel Kisling

From: "Rick Johnson" rjj915@hotmail.com

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: Re: Ok

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:15:57 PDT

I take it we're done already? That was quick. Thare are photographs of the Ark and efforts are being made for excavation. The cats was just an example and the word evolution is not strictly a Darwin theory who, by the way died a Christian.

The Bible is not fairy tale and it saddens me to see you view it that way. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into science try taking a real objective look at the Bible.

My comments on the Ark were merely a beginning. A starting point. As for Mt Everest who says it stood then as it does today?

What, if any church background do you have?

Rick

To: "Rick Johnson" rjj915@hotmail.com

From: Muriel Kisling mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject: Re: Ok

Hey Rick,

I was born and raised a proud Atheist for all my 18 years. I would guess that Agnostics are the only people who could possibly look at the bible objectively. But as I look at it, I am overwhelmed by the sexist and hateful garbage the bible teaches people to follow. It would go against my ethics alone to follow such a book. Then there's the common sense issues such as the already proven evolution, and the earth revolving around the sun, and the earth being round for crying out loud. Millions and millions of people were murdered for disagreeing with the church. It would be against my ethics to follow such a history of hatred and murder. I might as well become a Nazi!

I have looked at your bible, and i disagree with it. Maybe you should take an objective view to your own religion, perhaps you will understand where I am coming from. Cheerio!

Muriel Kisling

From: "Rick Johnson" rjj915@hotmail.com

To: mkisling@pressenter.com

Subject:

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:48:13 PDT

Hi Again Muriel,

I am glad I have met you and I see no sense in continuing at this point. You are an intelligent young woman and I mean that with all sincerity. God does not make mistakes and He has a purpose for your life. All you have to do is allow him into your life. My prayer for you is the one day you are able to come and know Him.

Take Care My Friend,

Rick Johnson

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