Posted by LP on November 19, 1997 at 07:50:33:
In Reply to: Re: Santino vs. Armand posted by Cecilia on November 18, 1997 at 17:57:55:
: : Armand's link was so strong with Marius because he was so young. He still needed an adult figure in his life. He needed the "Master". Marius should not have made him so young, and either way Armand should not have been kept in the dark about the other vampires in the world, those who would try and hunt, hurt, or kill him. That was Marius' failing. The entire weight of the blame cannot be put on Santino's shoulders.
: Wait, there's no need to go around stealing other vampire's fledgings.
Why not? From Santino's point of view they were rogue's who needed to be destroyed. They were a threat to his power, heretics, whatever. Marius, and therefore his fledgling had to be destroyed. And Santy was not going to steal him originally. I remember Armand being thrown into a big bonfire before Santino pulled him out.
: : And now the immortal, undying question. Why didn't Marius come after Armand and rescue him? Surely there would have been one point at which it was possible. I don't buy the arguement that Armand had changed too much or was no longer the same. I don't have a response, but I don't believe that one.
: It seemed Marius never found the courage to look for Armand when he could. But we are not discussing Marius here. I didn't like, though, the fact that he went searching for Lestat (and I do like Lestat).
No discussion then. *pout*
: : But. Discussion! *whine*.
: : That's just Louis. The fault is not his own. Hmm...that might be a good point for my paper...
: : Armand thought he needed Louis. I think he also thought he could
: : 1) make Louis love him, or that Louis would eventually love him, or
: : 2) really get back at Lestat for his rejection. Yes he craved love, but I don't think Armand is above a little retribution and revenge against those who spurn him.
: That's true. I think Armand loved Lestat more than Louis.
I love Armand's concept of love. Interesting to say the least. Dangerous to say even more.
: He knew that the coven had to change with the times, because he was coven leader, and was therefore the one who indoctrinated the new members. These new members did not have the same religious mindset as the "original" coven, so he had to continue to be innovative, as with any other political leader.
: Then why he abandoned the coven?
I've thought about that alot. I can think of a few reasons which I really don't have the time to substantiate, but I can list them.
1) Santino got bored with his little game.
2) There was a power struggle in the coven and Santino was going to lose, so he got out quick. (A challenge to his power.)
3) He got sick of his on sadistic tendancies, so he "reformed"
4) Someone came after him (Mael for instance, in retribution for what was done to Marius.)
5) The coven became too restrictive for him.
I am leaning towards either #2 or #5, and maybe #1. And of course, it could have been many factors which lead him to abandon the coven, and the time was just right when he left. (For instance, he knew he was going to leave, and the best way to escape, without killing off the coven which might lead to retribution for other coven leaders) was to make the coven more dependant on him, and then just disappear. Thus the coven is left in confusion, and nobody can sort out exactly what happened. Did he go mad? Did he go into the fire? What?
:: Armand however, went to a different country, one not nearly as religious as Italia, started his own coven, took it over, whatever, and set to using a rigid code. This code appears not to have changed since he was originally taught it. So in a very unreligious time period, Armand is still harking back to archaic practices. Yet when Lestat travels to the Roman coven, he finds that the coven had changed with the times.
: Well, Armand was young in mortal years and that somehow has an influence. And I will repeat myself, he didn't care about anything.
: : I don't think that Santino tried to teach him the strategy behind the laws. Or else Armand *really* does not have a head for strategy, which even I do not believe, since I know exactly how easy it is to lose a game of chess. And Armand held his own for a while with other chess players.
: Tsk, tsk, blaming the student?
Not at all. I really do not think Santino taught him, so what Armand knows about strategy must be natural talent, gleaned from his time with Santino (but not directly taught), or learned on his own by leading his coven (which goes with the first)
: : Why? I honestly do think that Santino has a better head for strategy than Armand.
: If that is true, what did he obtain from leading the coven? He couldn't even get to his primal objective, Those who must be Kept. He failed there.
That wasn't his primary objective. His primary objective was killing the heretics. Destroying them. Those Who Must Be Kept were myths by Santino's time. There was absolutely no evidence except rumors:
"'Did he never tell you? What are Those Who Must Be Kept?'
"'And so they did not understand it either. It was no more than a phrase to them as it was to him.'"
The mere fact that the rumours might be true was most likely one of the reasons Armand was spared.
: I'll ask you a question now, why didn't Santino kill Armand?
Because he could be manipulated and turned to the coven's ways. He had no personality set in yet, and he was still malleable.
LP.