Posted by LP on November 18, 1997 at 16:10:02:
In Reply to: Re: Santino vs. Armand posted by Cecilia on November 18, 1997 at 10:40:02:
: : Yes, he was forced *into* that life. But how on earth is one *forced* to become a coven leader? You can't be forced to be a coven leader, for the very reason alone that there are challenges to power. Maybe he wasn't interested in the coven, but then why, once the old one was broken, did he not just leave Paris? He took charge of the remaining vampires!! He essentially formed a new coven! Lestat did the dirty work, but Armand stayed. He did not go on his own way. Armand may not have been interested in the coven, but he was dependant on it. He had the power to leave whenever he wanted to, yet he didn't, because he was emotionally tied to the coven. Santino, however, once he got bored, decided to leave.
: I agree, he was dependant of the coven. He was separated of Marius when he was a very young boy (in mortal and vampire age though). Marius didn't have time to teach him all the things he wanted, one of those being the independence of a youn adult. That's precisely why I don't like Santino. he separaated two persons that loved each other and cut the fledging link that Armand had with Marius too soon.
Wait, wait, wait. Marius didn't have time? I will give the fact that not everything can be taught in six months, but the very fact that Marius kept Armand so protected was his own fault. Marius didn't even *try*. He didn't tell Armand anything about other vampires, how to protect himself. Armand wasn't even told how they (the other vampires) could hurt them.
Armand was in awe of Marius. Yes, there was love there, but it was not an equal love. Armand's life was probably for the first time happy. That is what Santino really stole: his happiness.
Armand's link was so strong with Marius because he was so young. He still needed an adult figure in his life. He needed the "Master". Marius should not have made him so young, and either way Armand should not have been kept in the dark about the other vampires in the world, those who would try and hunt, hurt, or kill him. That was Marius' failing. The entire weight of the blame cannot be put on Santino's shoulders.
And now the immortal, undying question. Why didn't Marius come after Armand and rescue him? Surely there would have been one point at which it was possible. I don't buy the arguement that Armand had changed too much or was no longer the same. I don't have a response, but I don't believe that one.
: : Hah! He destroys his old coven, takes charge of the new coven, and doesn't leave until Louis, then is rejected by Louis. Now he's an outlaw, and couldn't form a new coven, even if he wanted to. He floats around doing god knows what until Daniel. Armand didn't know how to live without the coven before he left with Louis, and really before Daniel. I don't think Armand learned all that much from Lestat and Gabrielle. He admired them, enyied possibly, but he didn't learn anything, which is one reason why Louis lost taste with him so quickly. Had Armand learned even a bit from Lestat or Gabrielle, Armand would have presented a more appealing figure to Louis. Instead Louis came to see him as a leech.
: Well, I have my own opinion about Louis. I don't understand him. First he agrees to be a vampire and then he decides he doesn't like it. And he blames Lestat for a decision he took! Not to mention his numerous betrayals (please, I don't want to discuss Louis too, I have to work also). I think that Armand made a mistake going with Louis, he needed someone who loved him, not Louis.
But. Discussion! *whine*.
That's just Louis. The fault is not his own. Hmm...that might be a good point for my paper...
Armand thought he needed Louis. I think he also thought he could
1) make Louis love him, or that Louis would eventually love him, or
2) really get back at Lestat for his rejection. Yes he craved love, but I don't think Armand is above a little retribution and revenge against those who spurn him.
: : I doubt that Santino actually believed the Great Laws. Santino doesn't act like one rejected by god so much as one who is and has always been disdainful of him. He does not act like one who has lost his faith, and had it reborn in a dark fashion, but like someone who enjoys destroying others' faith just because he can. He's seems rather a sadist, actually. The Great Laws helped to keep him in power, and they are an excellent way of controlling the other vampires. The Great Laws were mocking to the Church, as you noted above. I don't think that they were meant to make things more 'religious', though that was certainly a plus to keeping people in line, so much as a pun on the Catholic Church. Really, what Santino and his coven did to people is about the same level of 'evilness' as what the Church and her envoys did to people.
: Well, he tried to teach Armand all that stuff, and Armand used it to survive.
Not very well. Armand didn't grasp the finer points of teh strategy behind the game Santino was playing. What he saw was a method which worked for one person, so it should therefore work for him. But Santino was in the middle of a balancing act. He knew that the coven had to change with the times, because he was coven leader, and was therefore the one who indoctrinated the new members. These new members did not have the same religious mindset as the "original" coven, so he had to continue to be innovative, as with any other political leader. Armand however, went to a different country, one not nearly as religious as Italia, started his own coven, took it over, whatever, and set to using a rigid code. This code appears not to have changed since he was originally taught it. So in a very unreligious time period, Armand is still harking back to archaic practices. Yet when Lestat travels to teh Roman coven, he finds that the coven had changed with the times.
I don't think that Santino tried to teach him the strategy behind the laws. Or else Armand *really* does not have a head for strategy, which even I do not believe, since I know exactly how easy it is to lose a game of chess. And Armand held his own for a while with other chess players.
: : And why would he bother answering my questions? Besides, I like debating.
: That's a difference, Armand likes to answer my questions. I like debating too.
*grin*
: : Well of course not. You're an Armandian. However, I still stand by Santino.
: : Sure of what? Santy winning or Santy knowing Armand?
: I am sure that Armand won the game. And I think that Santino didn't know Armand as well as you seem to believe.
: Cecilia
Why? I honestly do think that Santino has a better head for strategy than Armand.
Later, LP.