Posted by LP on November 17, 1997 at 23:35:01:
In Reply to: Re: Santino vs. Armand posted by Cecilia on November 17, 1997 at 15:45:22:
: : *grin* Okay, I give. Why? Being a true believer in Santino-ness I must point out some of his finer points. He's crafty. Not only did he manage to take control of a coven in a very important city, but he was also able to keep control of that coven. Something Armand wasn't able to do with his, once the laws were challenged by Lestat and Gabrielle.
: Well, Armand was forced to that life, and when Lestat and Gabrielle came I think he used the oportunity to try to change his life. You cannot compare a child raised in such a cultured environment as Armand with Santino, whom all I know about is that he was previously a priest. Armand only managed to survive, he was not really interested in the coven.
Yes, he was forced *into* that life. But how on earth is one *forced* to become a coven leader? You can't be forced to be a coven leader, for the very reason alone that there are challenges to power. Maybe he wasn't interested in the coven, but then why, once the old one was broken, did he not just leave Paris? He took charge of the remaining vampires!! He essentially formed a new coven! Lestat did the dirty work, but Armand stayed. He did not go on his own way. Armand may not have been interested in the coven, but he was dependant on it. He had the power to leave whenever he wanted to, yet he didn't, because he was emotionally tied to the coven. Santino, however, once he got bored, decided to leave.
: : Santy, however, was able to:
: : 1) create the Great Laws.
: : 2) enforce the Great Laws (which must have been a challenge in the beginning, yet he manipulated (convinced--same difference) people into following him and his laws.
: : 3) when he decided to leave the coven he managed not to be hunted down and destroyed, which is what I would imagine the coven members would do. That's why coven leaders always kill off the coven members. See Armand.)
: : 4) Not get killed for being a 'rogue" vampire.
: Those great laws, I think, were a bad copy of religious literature. Come on! The devil?
Well, yes, definitely. However, he still did organize these laws into a form of power structure which kept him in power. Many leaders have done less inovative things just to remain on top. Santino choose the doctrines which held the most power for the times, (especially when the plague was rampaging through Europe!), and then twisted them into his own form. He then either created a new coven or took over the preexisting one, (I'd tend to guess both, making new vampires from the populace) and then when new vampires were made, they would come from a very religious era/background/upbringing and since they were now abandoned and shunned by God, they should embrace the "Dark Laws" of "Satan". Translation, obey Santino. And they did. To pull that off takes bravado and planning and quick wits.
: : The second example shows Santy's ability to manipulate and control people, be it through fear, or intimidation (throwing Armand in the fire for both of these, thus controlling Armand and the coven). Manipulation because in ruling any people there is always manipulation involved. And he kept them under control until he left. He was a leading influence. The coven was "lost" without him.
: : This shows the ability to plan, counter-plan, and strategical forethought. (I will admit his tactical thought is probably not very good since Marius did escape his little assassination attempt. But it is strategy, not tactics, which is involved in chess.)
: : Armand however has never been shown to think all that far ahead. Now, I'm not saying he doesn't think ahead at all, it is just his style is not as sneaky as everyone thinks. If the opportunity presents itself, he will take advantage of it. (His draining of Lestat for instance. Would he have tried seducing Lestat if Lestat had not been interested? No. Lestat was stronger, Armand knew this. Lestat was interested, Armand knew this. So go after Lestat and try and defeat him by seducing him.) He does not try and hide from the other vampires, he destroys them, and then refuses to have anything to do with the vampiric.
: As I said before, Armand only survived in the coven, he was wakened by Lestat and Gabrielle, though. And when that happened, he managed to get enough knowledge of the world around him to survive without Lestat. But Armand never believed in those *great laws*. I would like to know why Santino left the coven if he believed in them. BTW, he has not answered that question as far as I know, why don't you ask him?
Hah! He destroys his old coven, takes charge of the new coven, and doesn't leave until Louis, then is rejected by Louis. Now he's an outlaw, and couldn't form a new coven, even if he wanted to. He floats around doing god knows what until Daniel. Armand didn't know how to live without the coven before he left with Louis, and really before Daniel. I don't think Armand learned all that much from Lestat and Gabrielle. He admired them, enyied possibly, but he didn't learn anything, which is one reason why Louis lost taste with him so quickly. Had Armand learned even a bit from Lestat or Gabrielle, Armand would have presented a more appealing figure to Louis. Instead Louis came to see him as a leech.
I doubt that Santino actually believed the Great Laws. Santino doesn't act like one rejected by god so much as one who is and has always been disdainful of him. He does not act like one who has lost his faith, and had it reborn in a dark fashion, but like someone who enjoys destroying others' faith just because he can. He's seems rather a sadist, actually. The Great Laws helped to keep him in power, and they are an excellent way of controlling the other vampires. The Great Laws were mocking to the Church, as you noted above. I don't think that they were meant to make things more 'religious', though that was certainly a plus to keeping people in line, so much as a pun on the Catholic Church. Really, what Santino and his coven did to people is about the same level of 'evilness' as what the Church and her envoys did to people.
And why would he bother answering my questions? Besides, I like debating.
: : Armand takes advantage of the situation while Santino tries to create it; manipulate the circumstances to his own favor.
: : Staying out of the line of fire, not getting caught, may have been from Santy's staying "underground", or lack of interest, but I'm not so certain about that. He associated with other blood drinkers, though to what extent we do not know. I'm fairly certain that blood drinkers knew he was around, but they were never able to get him, just as vampires knew Armand killed the young vampires, but they could never get him because they were dead. Santy and Armand could very well be equal in this respect of avoidance.
: : Given all this I'm willing to bet that it was probably Santino who won the chess game. From what we know about the two of them Santy has a better head for strategy than Armand does. Also, Armand's modus operandi has changed very very little, if at all, from the time he was with Santino's coven to the time he was with Daniel. I can't say about Santy's mode of operation obviously, but if Armand's has changed little, Santino probably still knows how Armand's mind works.
: I would not be sure of it. And I don't want him to win the prize of the better manipulator either.
Well of course not. You're an Armandian. However, I still stand by Santino.
Sure of what? Santy winning or Santy knowing Armand?
: : Heh, heh. Challengers? LP, Guardian of Santino-ness.
: I'm really having fun with this.
: Cecilia
*grin* So am I. Sorry it took so long to respond. I got your response seven minutes before I had to leave for work. Toodles, LP.